Author Topic: [Pretty sure, YES] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?  (Read 19315 times)

Zoythrus

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #25 on: 17 December 2012, 00:12:17 »
To be honest, I preferred Spring's multiplayer client to Battle.net. Actually, Spring's multiplayer is the best multiplayer system that I've ever found.


Psychedelic_hands

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #26 on: 17 December 2012, 00:47:44 »
The goal of free or indie games has to be to provide some value which cannot be found in major commercial games because they cannot compete on story, art, or performance, and certainly not on multiplayer. Battle.net rules all.
This.  If you've already got a copy of Warcraft 3 (and most people who would be interested in playing Glest probably already do), why play Glest unless you're just an avid supporter of FOSS?  Better art, better story (in that it has one), more varied gameplay, more balancing, huge multiplayer community, etc.  We indie enthusiasts can't out-produce professional full-time developers, but we're free to take risks and explore whatever crazy innovation suits our fancy.  There is no reason I can see for trying to fit the mold of a standard Age Of Xcraft game unless that's just what you really enjoy doing.

But the way to do that is modability... which is limited in Megaglest trying be a game first and not an Engine.
Not saying MegaGlest isn't modable. Just, if a feauture doesn't get implemented because it "doesn't fit MegaGlest". Then you're doing it wrong.

Really to allow greater modability ( In the sense of entirely different games), we need features like custom AIs and stuff - Not just a few varribles changed in xml. Perferably written in Lua.

Offtopic Edit: Zoy, please don't tell me you're a brony now haha.

Zoythrus

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #27 on: 17 December 2012, 03:07:07 »
The goal of free or indie games has to be to provide some value which cannot be found in major commercial games because they cannot compete on story, art, or performance, and certainly not on multiplayer. Battle.net rules all.
This.  If you've already got a copy of Warcraft 3 (and most people who would be interested in playing Glest probably already do), why play Glest unless you're just an avid supporter of FOSS?  Better art, better story (in that it has one), more varied gameplay, more balancing, huge multiplayer community, etc.  We indie enthusiasts can't out-produce professional full-time developers, but we're free to take risks and explore whatever crazy innovation suits our fancy.  There is no reason I can see for trying to fit the mold of a standard Age Of Xcraft game unless that's just what you really enjoy doing.

But the way to do that is modability... which is limited in Megaglest trying be a game first and not an Engine.
Not saying MegaGlest isn't modable. Just, if a feauture doesn't get implemented because it "doesn't fit MegaGlest". Then you're doing it wrong.

Really to allow greater modability ( In the sense of entirely different games), we need features like custom AIs and stuff - Not just a few varribles changed in xml. Perferably written in Lua.
Yes, it's why Spring became so popular! I remember when the "Lua Boom" happened, when Spring got full support for LUA addons. After that day, Spring became what it is today! You know, it barely resembles Total Annihilation anymore. If we increased our modability, we could increase the size of our fanbase. So, devs, what are you going to do next?

Quote
Offtopic Edit: Zoy, please don't tell me you're a brony now haha.
Would it be a problem if I was?  ;)

MoLAoS

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #28 on: 17 December 2012, 03:37:28 »
It might be a good idea to implement a system like 0AD where gameplay is done in the embedded JS engine or something. That would allow significant modifications without having to compile.

Having to compile limits all Glest engines in the gameplay department. Offloading it all to XML like I am is certainly no more than a stop gap and the current Lua implementation isn't that much better.

helldiver

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #29 on: 18 December 2012, 02:28:59 »
The goal of free or indie games has to be to provide some value which cannot be found in major commercial games because they cannot compete on story, art, or performance, and certainly not on multiplayer. Battle.net rules all.
This. If you've already got a copy of Warcraft 3 (and most people who would be interested in playing Glest probably already do), why play Glest unless you're just an avid supporter of FOSS?  Better art, better story (in that it has one), more varied gameplay, more balancing, huge multiplayer community, etc.  We indie enthusiasts can't out-produce professional full-time developers, but we're free to take risks and explore whatever crazy innovation suits our fancy.  There is no reason I can see for trying to fit the mold of a standard Age Of Xcraft game unless that's just what you really enjoy doing.

I wouldn't bundle Glest with what most now come to know as "Indie". Glest GNU/GPL liscense makes it difficult for an Indie dev to monetize on it to at least return the investment put in to both polish it and make a viable commercial game out of it. You can still do it, but your options are limited. Currently the only use for Glest is for the at-home enthusiast, hobbyist, or as a prototyping tool.

Without being able to put your Indie Glest driven title on Steam, it cuts what oppertunities of distribution you have. Making a polished game that looks proffesional and not just another at-home hobby project takes time and money. Additionally Glest as it is (MegaGlest or GAE) just isn't polished enough and in a state for a viable commercial release. However, I believe with a bit of investment it can be. Unfortunately I don't know of any serious indie team that would want to use Glest, not because of what it can or can't do, but because of the GPL/GNU provisions.

I really wish the team behind Glest would have used a liscense similar to Unity (provisions for Indie but, a per-seat fee for legal entities/developers with more than $100k a year income). That way the at home enthusiasts could still make their mods as they've always been and indie devs could use it as a foundation. Funds taken in from commercial sales could go to improving the foundation source. Additionally by it not being GPL/GNU (or using a liscence that doesn't include source) it would encourage investment in the engine.

Why did I choose Glest over Unity/UDK, etc? Neither of those engines comes with a solid RTS api. Well they sort of do, but all of them are in research phases, require significant programmer time to get them fully implemented, and have high costs (not including programming time and research). Glest allows a non-programmer like me to easily "plug-and-play" the data of my game. Sure I still have to mess with the source, but nothing compared to the barebones Unity or UDK approach.

The problem with the GPL/GNU is that you have to include the source with your distribution. That means that any third party middleware you plug into the source code (or link libraries to) would cancel/conflict with the liscense. That means; no Steamworks (for steam distribution), no scaleform (for UIs), no flash (for UIs), DRM wrapper/handler and so on. Online digital distributors such as Steam, Direct2Drive/Gamefly, Gamer's Gate require a DRM setup so you can set up their authenticator systems. As far as I know none of these allow GPL/GNU covered engines or any such liscense that requires providing the source code.

That severely limits what can be done with an engine :( As I explained in another post; proffesional grade work costs a lot. Even recovering the costs just to break even can be difficult when you can only self-publish.

I have no problem donating to the Glest community to get the features I specifically want or need. The problem is when I add those costs on top of development costs it can severely hurt my enthusiasm particularly since I won't be able to distribute on Steam.

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #30 on: 18 December 2012, 03:31:00 »
A pay what you want scheme with quality assets could get you some pretty decent money although even MegaGlest doesn't have the multiplayer to support a community of any real size.

You could arguably also make your money on multiplayer if you implemented a solid multiplayer service. AFAIK the GPL applies to the code, you can charge for assets and multiplayer and such without conflicting with the license.

will

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #31 on: 21 December 2012, 07:26:15 »
I had no trouble getting the commit bit on GAE and features I coded for MG into MG either.  I mean, there's no hurdle to contributing to either or both projects, and MG has never - in my actual experience - been anti-feature.

I had no trouble getting code in to support Mr War's mods even though sci-fi is miles from MG's "story line".

What I think people misinterpret is that MG want you to explain how your feature is complete and water-tight before it gets committed, which we can thank them for.  If you add water buildings, they'll want to know what the AI does with them...

As an observation GAE was more open to untested incomplete submissions, which is totally cool and totally what they were about facilitating.

But we can talk about big plans and mull why MG isn't cool enough to be mainstream, but it really bugs me how the less you can yourself create the more dismissive you are of the excellent, painstaking, never-ending work people like Softcoder and Silnarm and co have put in.

silnarm

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #32 on: 3 August 2013, 02:21:42 »
Open source projects never die.

GAE was sleeping.
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Ishmaru

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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #33 on: 3 August 2013, 04:09:16 »
Does than mean your starting up GAE development?
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Re: Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #34 on: 3 August 2013, 05:46:30 »
It does indeed.
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Psychedelic

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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #36 on: 9 August 2013, 11:25:18 »
AND THE PEASANTS REJOICE!

Depending on your progress, I may need to take glest up again.
Lovely to see you aswell.  :|

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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #37 on: 9 August 2013, 12:49:53 »
This is excellent news!  :D

Haven't been active on these forums for the last year or so but I'll have to get back to modding now.  :swordman:
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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #38 on: 10 August 2013, 04:11:40 »
I may return as well..

Glad to see you about again Silnarm! ;D
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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #39 on: 10 August 2013, 10:35:18 »
Yeah, a big welcome back party.

Seems to be a good time to get a bit more active. We should somehow sort out how to proceed... Particularly, what was the difference between master and the 0.4.x branch and why did we need that?

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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #40 on: 11 August 2013, 20:19:29 »
Depending on your progress, I may need to take glest up again.

I'll be spending what time I can on it, but that will probably not be much so progress is not likely to come fast. It is was it is.

... Particularly, what was the difference between master and the 0.4.x branch and why did we need that?

I think the idea was to keep 0.4.x for fixage only while new work could go on on master, probably could be merged up, will peruse the logs sometime this week and make sure nothing to dangerous is in there.
 
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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #41 on: 11 August 2013, 20:25:41 »
Depending on your progress, I may need to take glest up again.

I'll be spending what time I can on it, but that will probably not be much so progress is not likely to come fast. It is was it is.

... Particularly, what was the difference between master and the 0.4.x branch and why did we need that?

I think the idea was to keep 0.4.x for fixage only while new work could go on on master, probably could be merged up, will peruse the logs sometime this week and make sure nothing to dangerous is in there.

What stuff have you thought about working on? I think Hailstone or someone wanted to do multiplayer. Any other major changes planned?

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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #42 on: 12 August 2013, 08:35:21 »
What stuff have you thought about working on? I think Hailstone or someone wanted to do multiplayer. Any other major changes planned?

Graphics (particle systems & shaders + modernising GL use).
AI (interface to Lua, reimplement current AI in Lua, and then start teaching it to use transports, boats, teleporting units etc)

As was my want previously, I am likely to 'wander' a bit ;)
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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #43 on: 12 August 2013, 08:43:54 »
Quote
Graphics (particle systems & shaders + modernising GL use).

YES. :thumbup: :D :D :D
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MoLAoS

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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #44 on: 12 August 2013, 13:42:02 »
What stuff have you thought about working on? I think Hailstone or someone wanted to do multiplayer. Any other major changes planned?

Graphics (particle systems & shaders + modernising GL use).
AI (interface to Lua, reimplement current AI in Lua, and then start teaching it to use transports, boats, teleporting units etc)

As was my want previously, I am likely to 'wander' a bit ;)

A Lua AI would certainly be interesting. I think 0AD does AI in JS which is similar since they are scripting languages, and I think Spring uses tons of Lua.

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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #45 on: 12 August 2013, 14:09:52 »
Yes Lua AI would get rid of some problems. Look at MG, while Softcoder has made the AI a little more customizable to the user via XML it still has major problems with anything slightly different from original Glest designs.

So will this entail having an AI script continuously running in the background?
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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #46 on: 12 August 2013, 14:19:00 »
Yes Lua AI would get rid of some problems. Look at MG, while Softcoder has made the AI a little more customizable to the user via XML it still has major problems with anything slightly different from original Glest designs.

So will this entail having an AI script continuously running in the background?

Damn, now I kinda wanna wait to do any work on my AI till we see what Silnarm does. I will still manage the current AI for Majesty-likes but probably wait for any other kind.

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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #47 on: 14 August 2013, 06:52:09 »
Welcome back Silnarm. I've done a rewrite of the networking stuff to use turn based lock-step networking which is working for the local interface but it needs some more work for the server/client interfaces. I'm not sure if my commits have been pushed to the server yet.
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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #48 on: 19 August 2013, 11:20:28 »
So will this entail having an AI script continuously running in the background?

Yep, each AI running in its own 'Lua state'.

Welcome back Silnarm. I've done a rewrite of the networking stuff to use turn based lock-step networking which is working for the local interface but it needs some more work for the server/client interfaces. I'm not sure if my commits have been pushed to the server yet.

Sounds most interesting, this rewrite replaces/heavily-changes the Commander class and command queuing system I assume? Would love to take a look, get it pushed, may need to reset the remote (as Frank mentions here) or clone from the new repository and patch serial, if you're still on the old repo.
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Re: [NOPE] Please read: Is the Glest Advanced Engine project dead?
« Reply #49 on: 1 September 2013, 09:07:32 »
Quote from: silnarm
Sounds most interesting, this rewrite replaces/heavily-changes the Commander class and command queuing system I assume?
It doesn't really change the assigning commands. It's more about changing the network communication so that commands are executed at the same time. For example each turn could be about 1/3 of a second. These are sent to the server and broadcasted to all clients (this could be multithreaded later). On the third turn we hope every player has the 1st turn so every player executes that turn at roughly the same time. It introduces a slight delay that should be disguised by animation/sounds but makes sure everyone is together. The turn length could be adjusted depending on rendering and network speed. It's based off of 0ad which was based off http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3094/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php
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