Author Topic: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)  (Read 40923 times)

MuwuM

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #125 on: 24 December 2012, 09:35:52 »
The first prototype of placehoder for the desert nomads is almost done (heroes and updates missing, no values like HP are set individually).

but it could be very usefull to place the new (placeholder-)factions in a new folder...

I think we should start our value-balancing:
What is the default HP for a worker? weak unit? heavy armoured unit? building? main building?
How many hits should an avarage unit needs to kill an avarage unit?

Here is a preview of my placeholders:


The resource models are included, too...

victorj

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #126 on: 24 December 2012, 11:05:01 »
Excuse to be nosy, but how MuwuM showed this photo, I remembered something when I showed megaglest to a friend, I think it's very simple the main palace of Persians, I agreed with him, being a former player Glest he and I we were already played to the models magitech, for him, us look what seem to be middle "simple" in megapack, we've played many RTS. some factions of the MegaPack should emphasize a little more the main building. This is just a tip of mine :D and say that I am thrilled with your works!

MuwuM

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #127 on: 24 December 2012, 11:39:22 »
for the resource-models it would be an improvement to have some kind of cracked earth or smaller stones arround them ... as it look very cut at the moment and grass or flowers would look stange in e.g. snow tileset ...

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #128 on: 24 December 2012, 17:12:08 »
Quote
but it could be very usefull to place the new (placeholder-)factions in a new folder...
Elaborate?

Worker: 600
Weak Unit: 675
Average Unit: 750
Heavy Armored: 925
Weak Building: 12,000
Average Building: ~20,000(building armor)
Main/Strong Building: ~30,000(strong building armor)
Hit for an unit to kill itself: 2-3

I think this would be a much more realistic setup than was used in Megapack. It would be quite different in gameplay though.. A large improvement in my opinion.

Resource Models:
I'll fix the gold model up and make the stone blend better.
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Zoythrus

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #129 on: 24 December 2012, 17:27:13 »
Remember, Arch, HP in games is relative. I think that your numbers are too high. 675 should be a heavy unit, not a weak one. To be honest, I think that we should base the stats off of Magitech, since that have good numbers (although we could increase damage a little).

Omega

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #130 on: 24 December 2012, 17:50:54 »
I'd like to propose counter numbers with larger values to allow more variance. Having an average health of 100 and an average attack of 10 is the same as having an average health of 1000 and an average attack of 100. However, the latter allows us to have more variance (we could have an attack 65% of the average rather than just 60%).

Thus, my proposal is based armour the number 1000 for workers, for ease of use (it's a base 10 numbering system, after all).

Worker: 1000
Weak unit: 800
Average unit: 1200
Strong unit: 1500
Weak building: 10 000
Average building: 20 000
Strong building: 30 000

Now, let's look at the reasoning here. So first of all, remember that units have armour, and a strong unit will likely have higher armour, meaning that a strong unit with the same amount of health as a weak unit will likely last longer. Anyway, let's pretend our unit can kill a worker in three hits, so 333 damage a hit, on average. Thus, a weak unit should be four hits. An average unit should be four to five, depending on the armour value. A strong unit would be about five hits. The buildings, on the other hand, should be extremely resilent. You shouldn't be able to knock down a castle with a few swordmen. You should need a large number of units or some special units made for anti-structure use. At any rate, this 333 attack strength unit would take 30 hits to take down a weak building on its own (or three units would take ten hits), whereas an average building would take 60 hits and a strong building would take a hefty 90 hits. This is from an average strength unit with an average attack speed (let's not be forgetting attack speed; there's more to an attack than being powerful). The numbers are all rough estimates. We shouldn't have ever strong unit have 1500 health. Some might have more, some might have less. It's possible to have a unit with very strong offensive stats and vulnerable defenses (like the Archmage).
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

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-Archmage-

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #131 on: 24 December 2012, 18:20:57 »
Remember, Arch, HP in games is relative. I think that your numbers are too high. 675 should be a heavy unit, not a weak one. To be honest, I think that we should base the stats off of Magitech, since that have good numbers (although we could increase damage a little).

No heavies would be bigger stronger men, they should get higher hp, better armor, and better attack. The thing is they cost more, and have more requirements. That way they are actually HEAVY units.

Modification:

Worker: 600
Weak Unit: 475
Average Unit: 725
Heavy Armored: 850
Weak Building: 12,000
Average Building: ~20,000(building armor)
Main/Strong Building: ~30,000(strong building armor)
Hit for a unit to kill itself: 2-3
Hits for any infantry unit(excluding anything more powerful than a heavy) to kill a building: 1000+ (high as possible)
(Siege or a bunch of very powerful units[hero, airship, etc] should be pretty much the only units capable of even touching the main or defensive buildings. It's really lame how in glest 20 units can kill a defense tower with little effort.)

I notice a pattern with all Glest units. You guys tend to want to balance the unit which kinda ruins it. Heavys ARE stronger in every way!! Not oh they get more armor lets take away their speed and make their hp low and make their attack slower. Marines carry on average 90 pounds of armor, often more. They are trained to move fast nonetheless. This is a factor that makes them awesome.
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Zoythrus

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #132 on: 24 December 2012, 19:09:12 »
you misunderstood me, I meant that Heavy units would have more HP than other units, even if their HP is ~650. I.E. 650 would be a lot of HP.

ElimiNator

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #133 on: 24 December 2012, 19:35:32 »
Is doesn't rely matter the HP units have, it matters the attack strength vs the HP.

I vote the HP is something constant like 800, 400, 1200, not 125, 481, 1199.
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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #134 on: 24 December 2012, 20:41:46 »
you misunderstood me, I meant that Heavy units would have more HP than other units, even if their HP is ~650. I.E. 650 would be a lot of HP.
Oh, sure, that's fine then.

Eh Elim, I like to keep a more sophisticated feeling. But of course sticking to 0's and 5's.
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MuwuM

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #135 on: 24 December 2012, 21:06:19 »
Quote
but it could be very usefull to place the new (placeholder-)factions in a new folder...
Elaborate?

already done (Dropbox/megaglest_refit/...)... was more like a reminder for me ...

1000 as default for worker would be useful as it's noticeable and we could use constant numbers, like ElimiNator mentioned:   1000 +/-  x * 200
So I support Omega's concept.

Siege or a bunch of very powerful units[hero, airship, etc] should be pretty much the only units capable of even touching the main or defensive buildings. It's really lame how in glest 20 units can kill a defense tower with little effort.

Main-building could even have 100 000 HP.


ElimiNator

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #136 on: 24 December 2012, 21:22:42 »
I don't think its a good idea to vary far from the default magitech HP style because most mods are balanced with magitech and people will want to play other mods with megapack.
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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #137 on: 24 December 2012, 21:56:33 »
Elim that's why lower health with better attack and strong buildings works, it's about as close to magitech as it gets with improvement still. I didn't start this project to keep the gameplay the same old same old....I want it to be revolutionary and awesome!
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Omega

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #138 on: 24 December 2012, 22:20:37 »
I don't think its a good idea to vary far from the default magitech HP style because most mods are balanced with magitech and people will want to play other mods with megapack.
There's going to be balance issues no matter what. Even if the HP of most units aren't changed, the much higher than average HP of the buildings is a big difference. Not to mention that units are going to be stronger, since we're aiming for 3-4 hits to kill themselves, right? So the way I see it, balance with non-megapack factions is going to be broken no matter what, so may as well choose a standard we think will best fit the game.

While we're discussing HP, though, we need to take a look at armour. As a reminder, the damage formula is (attack strength - armour value) * damage multiplier. Thus, armour can make a huge difference. However, if the average attack is something like 300 damage, then 20 armour is almost nothing (7%). Armour would have to be more in the 50 (17%) to 150 range (50%) to make an impact on most units. However, I'd personally rather see a focus towards the attack type rather than the armour value. The armour value is more for making some types of metal armour better than others, so I think that armour should be based at zero. So a swordman (PS: can we please rename it to "swordsman"?) would have zero armour, as it's pretty much the most basic leather armour unit. On the other hand, the horseman might get something like 50 armour. Long story short, we shouldn't be using armour values very much, instead focusing on the attack and armour types. If you've seen the Google Doc, you'll notice some multipliers as low as 0.2, so attack and armour types really matter, especially with specialty units.

However, I'd like to point out we can't really do that much planning about HP, armour, and attack strength in discussion alone. We need to make a testing faction and give the values a try. I again think we should base the HP around 1000, and have all units' HP and attack strengths within multiples of 50 or maybe 25. This makes the numbers simpler. Easier to remember that a guard has 1500 HP than 675 and easier to remember that his attack strength is 400 instead of 225. But honestly, let's actually give the values a try before we knock 'em.

Although I'm not sure about the fact that a unit should be able to kill itself in 2-3 moves. First of all, there's the attack speed issue. Some units might have really fast attacks, which should be weaker. Other units are powerhouses with lots of HP, like the airship. If the airship has 2000 HP, to kill itself in 2-3 moves would have an attack strength that's one hitting most units, which is too much in my opinion. The attack strength should be relative to the average unit, not the unit using the attack. However, even if we're killing the average unit in 2-3 attacks, that still seems a bit fast too me. Units with splash attacks would dominate, since they could kill a unit before the unit can reach the attacker. I think the average unit against the average unit should be about 3-4 attacks to kill and weaker units should take longer while stronger units might take less hits. This 3-4 hits should also take into aspect the armour multipliers. Some units would have natural advantages over others while some are at severe disadvantages, which really changes the number of hits needed to kill the unit.

Finally, buildings. Please remember that buildings have their own armour types, against which the majority of attacks are rather ineffective against. Thus, we don't need too high HP values for the buildings. After all, if it's too high, even siege units won't be able to do much damage as a percentage. Percentage damage is what's important, not absolute.

So, if you haven't seen it yet, here's the attack and armour types doc. Also, anyone want to volunteer to create a testing faction for testing appropriate values for HP, armour, and attack strength? Bear in mind we need to test attacks with splash damage, buildings, and battles with large numbers of participants.
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MuwuM

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #139 on: 24 December 2012, 22:26:39 »
I build a testfaction of the desert-people with the values omega (you) mentioned a few posts before.

will be in the dropbox within the next 15 minutes.

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #140 on: 24 December 2012, 22:34:15 »
I don't like simple numbers for the unit HPs, but I suppose that's a fettish. :P

I prefer 2-3 for most units. That's not universal. Units like the airship should kill a swordsman in 2 hits.
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MuwuM

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #141 on: 24 December 2012, 22:53:54 »
atm each unit is able to kill it self with 2-3 hits wich seems to be kind of wrong for tanky units ....

anyone else tested my protoype faction?

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #142 on: 24 December 2012, 22:57:54 »
atm each unit is able to kill it self with 2-3 hits wich seems to be kind of wrong for tanky units ....

anyone else tested my protoype faction?

Well yea as I said it's gonna have to be a little different for some of the other units.
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ElimiNator

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #143 on: 25 December 2012, 18:40:26 »
Now about the horse model, are we going to use the one from Tech or create a new one?

If its a new one Ill give it a try.
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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #144 on: 25 December 2012, 18:48:20 »
I think we should take the one from Tech and enhance it.
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Omega

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #145 on: 28 December 2012, 20:15:07 »
Okay, I sorted out the art folder of our repo. Let's try and keep things reasonably neat so we don't lose anything. The folder source_files/megapack_refit is an empty clone of the folder structure of the techtree. It can store all faction specific art work. That's blend files, xcf, pdn, whatever. Let's keep the concept art in the Google docs, where it's easier for the community to maintain.

So, for example, I finished the desert nomad's market, so the source files go in source_files/megapack_refit/factions/actaen_nomads/units/market (I'm not sure what's with the faction name. What are we calling the desert faction?). If someone completes the images for icons for the market, they'll go in that folder too. This makes it easiest to know where to look for files.

Other source files will go where we expect the actual file to go. So the loading screen image for the desert nomads is located at source_files/megapack_refit/factions/actaen_nomads.

The njord faction had two WIP models which I placed in the respective unit folders (armory and castle). They still have to be completed.

In the base source_files folder is also a dump_bin folder, which is a few unassociated models or artwork that aren't used directly by the game, but may be of use to us in the future. There's also a folder for the humanoid model Arch has made. I'm not sure what's up with the model, though. man.blend has a nice start to the UV, but no head and a basic walking animation. man_prototype.blend has a head, but the arms are detached from the body and there's no animation. So it seems neither of these are the models that Arch demonstrated, despite the G3D files in that folder that demonstrate Arch's animations. Arch, could you toss in your blend files if they aren't already there? And once Hands finishes the UV, it can go in that folder as well, since many units from multiple factions will likely use the base humanoid.

Finally, there's an "other" folder for media that's related to the mod, but not a part of it, such as the story or the world map.

Anyway, just trying to keep things neat here to we can find stuff without having to ask everyone where the files are. I still have no idea what's with the megapack folder in the repo, and note that the njord faction doesn't have a faction folder in the techtree yet. The actaen nomads faction folder is just megapack units renamed to the appropriate names. I still think it'd be easier to use if we just deleted all the placeholders, as it would allow us to easily see what's been done and what's not. The appropriate google docs should also note the unit as done.
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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #146 on: 29 December 2012, 02:15:40 »
Alright first of all, awesome work Omega. Cheers.

Second, the man's head was just hidden, but its still there.  ;)

Zoythrus

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #147 on: 29 December 2012, 23:03:11 »
Off topic, but I would like to propose a new armor system. Instead of "leather," "metal," etc, I would like us to use "Infantry," "Heavy Infantry," "Cavalry," etc. Why? Because if we want to use a very loose Rock-Paper-Scissors style, it would make it much easier. When you have armor types based upon what the unit is actually wearing, it causes some "bonus damage confusion." ie a Swordman and a Cavalry could both have "Steel" as their armor type, and that helps nobody out.

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #148 on: 29 December 2012, 23:29:44 »
Zoy, have you even seen the Attack and Armour types doc? Cavalry has its own armor type, but that is subdivided into things like cloth cavalry and metal cavalry. Why? Because look at the Drake Rider and Horseman. They're both cavalry, but still radically different. Likewise, there's the need for custom attack types for some units. For example, the proposed raider for the Njord faction is supposed to be antiworker and antistructure, which means that structures and workers also need their own attack types. I also tried to logically explain all the multipliers in an attempt to make the attack and armour types seem logical. Arrows are more effective against an unarmoured humanoid than a stone building, for example. Fire based magical attacks are more effective against a wooden building than a metal one, and so on.

While I respect the merits of a rock-paper-scissors style triangle, I don't think our factions are simple enough to divide like that. It's more like pokemon types than rock-paper-scissors. There's just a lot of diversity in the units and their attacks.

(Also, that's not off topic. We should be discussing these sorts of things)
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Zoythrus

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Re: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)
« Reply #149 on: 30 December 2012, 00:00:35 »
I said "off topic" since it had nothing to do with the previous discussion topic.

I had taken a quick look at the doc, so I must have missed that. But you get my point, that armor should be more based upon the unit's physical type than the actual armor. Also, it looks odd if a guy is wearing a metal suit of armor, but it looks like leather.

The main reason I brought it up is because the old Megapack factions use the old armor system (and I had forgotten about the doc), so I just wanted to make sure we were all on the right page.

 

anything