Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)

[Omega]

Hey guys, I've been noticing that the Desert Nomad team has been putting their stuff in the megapack_refit folder while the Njord team seems to have a bit in both the megapack_refit and the megapack folders. Can we cut out the extra folder, unless anyone has plans for it? Looking at the megapack folder, it appears to be the original megapack with the factions renamed and the Njord units renamed. I propose we move the modified Njord files to the megapack_refit folder and delete the megapack folder, so we just have one place for the factions.

[Zoythrus]

I've been planning to move it all over when we were done with it. But I can move it all over now, if you'd like.

[Zoythrus]

Okay, Omega and I were talking about our new "Unit Stats" doc (it's a tab of the Armor/Attack doc), and we came up with some important changes.

1. The workers will not all be the same! Each one is going to be a small picture of the faction as a whole. Eg. The Nomadic Slave will be the greatest at harvesting resources across the board (seeing as the Nomads are going to be our economic powerhouse), while the Njordic Thrull will be the speediest and have a small construction and wood harvesting bonus, but have the least HP/defense of all workers, and Woodsmen workers would be much cheaper and faster to produce, but are the least productive (since the Woodsmen are our spam faction).

2. Some of the Njord units were discussed and repurposed a bit. The Hersir will be slow (by Njord standards), but will be a powerful fighter with a great armored defense (including extra resistance to arrows and other ranged attacks). The Huskarl is now an anti-armor/structure unit. It lugs around a war hammer that rips heavily armored and fortified units like the Hersir to shreds. It is quick, but more lightly armored (to help outmaneuver armored units and quickly close in on structures).

3. Something that Omega and I are still discussing is this, that all Myth units should be "magically" armored. I'm hoping on giving one (or more) of our factions a "Witch Hunter"-esque unit that excels at killing magically armored units (eg, the Magic's Behemoth, the Njord's Einherjar, the Nomadic Phoenix, etc).

Hey, Muwum, you should start putting the Nomad units' stats on the page.

[Omega]

3. Something that Omega and I are still discussing is this, that all Myth units should be "magically" armored. I'm hoping on giving one (or more) of our factions a "Witch Hunter"-esque unit that excels at killing magically armored units (eg, the Magic's Behemoth, the Njord's Einherjar, the Nomadic Phoenix, etc).

Not necessarily all, but many. The "magical" armour type was initially intended for magical barriers and such, but can be applied to other units for balance. For example, the Einherjar has magical armour, which makes sense since it's a mythical unit. The magical armour type also turns the fields a bit for factions with largely magical units, since its not as vulnerable as the organic or cloth types. The basis behind the magical multipliers is that magical barriers require energy from the user to maintain, and pressure on the barriers uses up this energy. So an attack that is focused on a small area, such as a piercing attack, would be ineffectual, while an attack focused on a large area, like an impact attack, would be very effective.

Such a type should be relatively rare. It fits the Einherjar well. This is the first I've heard about a Phoenix, but any creature that's an embodiment of magic well fits the description. I'm not so sure about the behemoth, though, which I always regarded as very high HP but vulnerable, exposed flesh. It would, however, fit the god-like hero units of the Nomads well.

As for why we should have unit stats in an excel document, it would make it easier to balance the factions, since they're being developed largely separate.

[-Archmage-]

I like these ideas. Zoy could you send me ALL the different doc links, and I'll put them on the first posts of the appropriate topics.

[Omega]

Attack and armour types (unit stats on second tab)

Norse techtree

Desert Nomads techtree

[Zoythrus]

3. Something that Omega and I are still discussing is this, that all Myth units should be "magically" armored. I'm hoping on giving one (or more) of our factions a "Witch Hunter"-esque unit that excels at killing magically armored units (eg, the Magic's Behemoth, the Njord's Einherjar, the Nomadic Phoenix, etc).

Not necessarily all, but many. The "magical" armour type was initially intended for magical barriers and such, but can be applied to other units for balance. For example, the Einherjar has magical armour, which makes sense since it's a mythical unit. The magical armour type also turns the fields a bit for factions with largely magical units, since its not as vulnerable as the organic or cloth types. The basis behind the magical multipliers is that magical barriers require energy from the user to maintain, and pressure on the barriers uses up this energy. So an attack that is focused on a small area, such as a piercing attack, would be ineffectual, while an attack focused on a large area, like an impact attack, would be very effective.

Such a type should be relatively rare. It fits the Einherjar well. This is the first I've heard about a Phoenix, but any creature that's an embodiment of magic well fits the description. I'm not so sure about the behemoth, though, which I always regarded as very high HP but vulnerable, exposed flesh. It would, however, fit the god-like hero units of the Nomads well.

Generally, units that are gifted/blessed by the gods (Einherjar, Phoenix, or even heroes!) should have magical armor. Magical armor should be moderately resilient to mortal weapons (seeing as they are granted by the gods), but some weapons wielded by "witch hunters" should be able to bypass them.

Now, most of the Magic faction isn't going to have magically armored units (things like Initiates, Drake Riders, Summoners, and Battle Mages aren't adept enough to have special protection). Archmages, Behemoths (maybe, although I think that they're "magical" enough to count), Dragons, Golems, and the like will, though.

Also, Impact damage could be useful against them for the reason stated (like, in case you have no anti-mages), but anti-magic would pretty much be their downfall.

[Zoythrus]

Hey, there was a clever idea that I had for my failed mod, Constellus, that I want to implement here. I like to call them "Strategic Techs." A Strategic Tech is a special, completely free upgrade at one of the higher upgrade buildings on the tech tree that give a wonderful bonus to your faction....at a heavy cost. Every faction would have one of these techs.

eg. here's what I want to give the Njord:
-The Last Stand: All military units get a +25% attack damage bonus and a +10% attack speed bonus, at the cost of 30% max HP. Yes, you're lowering their already low HP for a permanent attack bonus. (these values can be changed)

Now, because there is no cost, this is a completely optional upgrade, you have no obligation to get it.

What do you think? I would like to add these into the game since they add a subtle amount of new strategy into it.

[ElimiNator]

Hey, there was a clever idea that I had for my failed mod, Constellus, that I want to implement here. I like to call them "Strategic Techs." A Strategic Tech is a special, completely free upgrade at one of the higher upgrade buildings on the tech tree that give a wonderful bonus to your faction....at a heavy cost. Every faction would have one of these techs.

eg. here's what I want to give the Njord:
-The Last Stand: All military units get a +25% attack damage bonus and a +10% attack speed bonus, at the cost of 30% max HP. Yes, you're lowering their already low HP for a permanent attack bonus. (these values can be changed)

Now, because there is no cost, this is a completely optional upgrade, you have no obligation to get it.

What do you think? I would like to add these into the game since they add a subtle amount of new strategy into it.

Sounds neat, but it would be better to make it temporary, which is possible I think.

[Zoythrus]

Hey, there was a clever idea that I had for my failed mod, Constellus, that I want to implement here. I like to call them "Strategic Techs." A Strategic Tech is a special, completely free upgrade at one of the higher upgrade buildings on the tech tree that give a wonderful bonus to your faction....at a heavy cost. Every faction would have one of these techs.

eg. here's what I want to give the Njord:
-The Last Stand: All military units get a +25% attack damage bonus and a +10% attack speed bonus, at the cost of 30% max HP. Yes, you're lowering their already low HP for a permanent attack bonus. (these values can be changed)

Now, because there is no cost, this is a completely optional upgrade, you have no obligation to get it.

What do you think? I would like to add these into the game since they add a subtle amount of new strategy into it.

Sounds neat, but it would be better to make it temporary, which is possible I think.

That's the whole point of it, Elim, that it's permanent. The whole point is to force the player to ask himself "Is this tradeoff worth it?"
If you make a mistake, you're stuck with it. You'll just have to accept that fact and keep playing anyways.

[MoLAoS]

The problem with the permanent change is that there is likely one correct answer to the problem so its not really a decision.

I guess maybe if you focused hard on ranged one game you might go for the boost, and if you went melee you wouldn't. But that would require a balance in the faction where focusing on one of those options wasn't clearly superior.

[Zoythrus]

The problem with the permanent change is that there is likely one correct answer to the problem so its not really a decision.

I guess maybe if you focused hard on ranged one game you might go for the boost, and if you went melee you wouldn't. But that would require a balance in the faction where focusing on one of those options wasn't clearly superior.

These upgrades would be based upon two things that the faction is geared for in the first place. In the case of the Njord, who are based upon damage output, speed, and a lack of HP, this upgrade works great for them. Do you want to get an immense damage bonus (I could raise it to 50%) at the cost of losing something you have little of in the first place?

[ElimiNator]

The problem with the permanent change is that there is likely one correct answer to the problem so its not really a decision.

I guess maybe if you focused hard on ranged one game you might go for the boost, and if you went melee you wouldn't. But that would require a balance in the faction where focusing on one of those options wasn't clearly superior.

These upgrades would be based upon two things that the faction is geared for in the first place. In the case of the Njord, who are based upon damage output, speed, and a lack of HP, this upgrade works great for them. Do you want to get an immense damage bonus (I could raise it to 50%) at the cost of losing something you have little of in the first place?

Well for the Njord it should be opposite, less damage but more HP.

[Zoythrus]

The problem with the permanent change is that there is likely one correct answer to the problem so its not really a decision.

I guess maybe if you focused hard on ranged one game you might go for the boost, and if you went melee you wouldn't. But that would require a balance in the faction where focusing on one of those options wasn't clearly superior.

These upgrades would be based upon two things that the faction is geared for in the first place. In the case of the Njord, who are based upon damage output, speed, and a lack of HP, this upgrade works great for them. Do you want to get an immense damage bonus (I could raise it to 50%) at the cost of losing something you have little of in the first place?

Well for the Njord it should be opposite, less damage but more HP.

I was debating between both of those (since both would work), but I thought that going with an HP boost at the cost of attack power made them seem "normal," like they'd lose what made them special.

[MoLAoS]

The problem with the permanent change is that there is likely one correct answer to the problem so its not really a decision.

I guess maybe if you focused hard on ranged one game you might go for the boost, and if you went melee you wouldn't. But that would require a balance in the faction where focusing on one of those options wasn't clearly superior.

These upgrades would be based upon two things that the faction is geared for in the first place. In the case of the Njord, who are based upon damage output, speed, and a lack of HP, this upgrade works great for them. Do you want to get an immense damage bonus (I could raise it to 50%) at the cost of losing something you have little of in the first place?

But you don't want to have a case of why would I ever not take the upgrade, because the whole point is that it's a strategic choice. Assuming that it goes as far as having a specific yes or no for each faction, that makes it a utility upgrade.

Although I suppose it could work like, if opponent stacks range don't take it, as opposed to just based on if you stack range.

So if you went range and they went melee you could crush them with the upgrade.

[Zoythrus]

The problem with the permanent change is that there is likely one correct answer to the problem so its not really a decision.

I guess maybe if you focused hard on ranged one game you might go for the boost, and if you went melee you wouldn't. But that would require a balance in the faction where focusing on one of those options wasn't clearly superior.

These upgrades would be based upon two things that the faction is geared for in the first place. In the case of the Njord, who are based upon damage output, speed, and a lack of HP, this upgrade works great for them. Do you want to get an immense damage bonus (I could raise it to 50%) at the cost of losing something you have little of in the first place?

But you don't want to have a case of why would I ever not take the upgrade, because the whole point is that it's a strategic choice. Assuming that it goes as far as having a specific yes or no for each faction, that makes it a utility upgrade.

Although I suppose it could work like, if opponent stacks range don't take it, as opposed to just based on if you stack range.

So if you went range and they went melee you could crush them with the upgrade.

A perfectly valid strategy! See? That's why I want it, to get people to think like that.

[John.d.h]

The problem with the permanent change is that there is likely one correct answer to the problem so its not really a decision.

This.  Since we're dealing with raw numbers here, it's a little tricky to make this a choice rather than a problem to solve.  Of course, even if it is a problem, the solution may vary depending on the circumstances (e.g. what factions you're playing against), but the upgrade is either going to be worth it or not worth it based on the trade-off.  I'm inclined to agree that maybe making it temporary but beneficial would be the way to go (not unlike AoM's god powers) so you can give your units a boost when they desperately need it, but you need to make it count since it's only good once.  That still puts it firmly in the "problem" category, but it makes it a much trickier one because you have to predict when the best time to use it will be.

[MoLAoS]

I would have said put it on a cool down but I don't think that Zoythrus will be able to get that and tool tips and all the other work done in time. Making it temporary is probably better whether it can be set on a cooldown or not.

[ElimiNator]

I don't like this, your supposed to pick a faction because you like the game-play of it, if you do this than it will be like two factions and will require twice the balancing to insure there is no unfair advantage.

[Zoythrus]

I saw it work well in AoE3, so I thought to apply it here.

And Elim, it's not two factions, it's more like a specialization of one faction.

[ElimiNator]

Yah, but it will have to be balanced twice.

[-Archmage-]

I would consider that kind of upgrade pretty much useless, all it does it shift the unit balance, that's not even an upgrade.

Speaking of Balance is there really a point to it in the first place? It's just a fetish. Realistically balance is complete and utter hooey. That's what makes real warfare so much more scary...and real. I rather prefer an offset of power, it means that a faction actually IS powerful and a mega Rome is to be feared more than a mega Desert Nomads. In my own personal techtree I'm not sure what the balance of power is... I could guess but who knows, I just tweak whatever doesn't feel/look right when I play games and it's proved to be a lot more fun to play than any other techtree ever(for me, obviously). This I think would be something more original, a REAL contrast in power. Obviously I'm not talking about Rome is 3 times as strong as Desert Nomads, just that Rome is 1.2 times as strong, and will usually win against them in the average faceoff. That's why I'm more of an fps player, barrett kills in 1 shot and usp in 5. There's some extreme contrast there, so there is a lot of variety to how you stack your class and how you play with it. In every strategy game I've ever played, it's just too balanced. I'm very serious about this, balance honestly ruins a lot of games in my opinion.

[MoLAoS]

I agree haha. I hate obsessive balancing in multiplayer focused games so much. Its why single player games are just more fun.

I refer to this as the competitive/exploratory dichotomy. I prefer exploratory strategy.

[-Archmage-]

I agree haha. I hate obsessive balancing in multiplayer focused games so much. Its why single player games are just more fun.

I refer to this as the competitive/exploratory dichotomy. I prefer exploratory strategy.

I wasn't expecting anyone to agree with me..
Yea, I honestly don't enjoy Megaglest multiplayer at all unless it's lan play with my own unbalanced tech tree..

[MoLAoS]

Obsessive balancing like in commercial multiplayer focused RTS games ruins all the cool things we can try, adds loads of money and time wasted on patching it as the meta evolves, wastes time in the development phase too.