Author Topic: Generic MG Refit Discussion (renamed)  (Read 38025 times)

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #25 on: 16 December 2012, 19:21:09 »
I don't think Glest RPG will do a good job for this. It would probably be a good movie or book, but not a game. We need more structure and geography than storyline to set the scene.

Elim: I was thinking 6 factions, tech magic and other with influences from the current faction. Egypt and Persia would be combined to form a desert cavalry superpower.
Quote
Kingdom of the South(Tech)
Society of Magic
Eastern Republic(Roman Influence)
Imperial Northern [EPIC NAME] (Norse Influence)
Native Rebels(Indians)
Empire of the Desert(Egypt/Persia Influence)

Something like that sound interesting?
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

MightyMic

  • Technician
  • ****
  • Posts: 150
  • To mod, or not to mod...
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #26 on: 16 December 2012, 19:53:55 »
If we eventually agree on a techtree design, and the proposed idea is approved by the devs, we could have each community member agree to create a certain model (i.e. -Archmage- make horseman, Eliminator makes Castle... etc.) I just got 10gb in dropbox's spacerace and would be willing to host a repository.
This, I think, would overcome the greatest challenge to making a mod which is the amount of time it take to actually make it (and make it good) When I started my Lego mod, I was super enthusiastic, but as I realized how much work it took (even for just one model) I became a little discouraged and stopped working on it... I think this would help make a remake of the factions possible [although I've been looking at my Lego tileset and am hoping to get a new release out by the end of the year]
Just an idea

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #27 on: 16 December 2012, 20:01:16 »
That would be perfect Mightymic! Just don't have a crash.  :O

My biggest worry is animation, most of the animations in the megapack are....very strange. And good animation takes time.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

ElimiNator

  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,391
  • The MegaGlest Moder.
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #28 on: 16 December 2012, 21:12:54 »
I like the idea of removing most of the fantasy, however the total faction revamp may not go over well, especially removing/merging/renaming them.

A poll in need for this after a few more suggestions come in.

Personally I think we should keep all the factions and just cut out fantasy and re-map them.
Get the Vbros': Packs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5!

MoLAoS

  • Ornithopter
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #29 on: 16 December 2012, 21:15:35 »
Personally I think you should create a megapack with more fantasy elements and not less. 0 A.D. is far and away superior in terms of historical factions and if MegaGlest attempts to compete there they will lose.

ElimiNator

  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,391
  • The MegaGlest Moder.
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #30 on: 16 December 2012, 21:32:58 »
Personally I think you should create a megapack with more fantasy elements and not less. 0 A.D. is far and away superior in terms of historical factions and if MegaGlest attempts to compete there they will lose.
0 A.D is rather bad, I have seen it. The models and techtrees may be good but that is about how far it goes. Game is choppy on good machines and mutiplayer is not good.
Get the Vbros': Packs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5!

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #31 on: 16 December 2012, 21:40:09 »
+1 to the poll.

My idea's purpose is to try and mix the history(romans) and fantasy(magic) together well. But I'm right with you on removing most of the fantasy elements and remapping. That would make the game feel and play much better.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

MightyMic

  • Technician
  • ****
  • Posts: 150
  • To mod, or not to mod...
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #32 on: 16 December 2012, 21:55:46 »
I think the biggest problem with the fantasy right now is the particle effects. They're way to much... and having them emanate from a sphinx's head is a little over doing it

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #33 on: 16 December 2012, 21:56:45 »
Personally, I think that we should tone down the fantasy a little bit, but not fully eliminate it. Allowing the Indians to keep the Thunderbird or letting the Norse keep Thor is perfectly fine with me; it's just enough fantasy to add flavor to the faction, but not be overwhelming. This shouldn't be fully historical (as was previously mentioned, 0AD already does that), but it shouldn't be too full of fantastic elements either.

So, as I was saying before, we should think of a gameplay style to align each faction with.

Tech - Versatility. No strengths, but no real weaknesses.
Magic - Strong, but unwieldy, no unlike how they are now.
Norse - Quick Offensive, at the cost of defense.
Romans - Slow but effective power. It may take them a little while to set up, but they become a force to be reckoned with when they do.
Indians - Defense. Pretty much the inverse of the Norse.
Persians/Egypt -  Economy Superpower! They are just so efficient at harvesting resources!

What do you think?

MoLAoS

  • Ornithopter
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #34 on: 16 December 2012, 22:01:50 »
Personally I think you should create a megapack with more fantasy elements and not less. 0 A.D. is far and away superior in terms of historical factions and if MegaGlest attempts to compete there they will lose.
0 A.D is rather bad, I have seen it. The models and techtrees may be good but that is about how far it goes. Game is choppy on good machines and mutiplayer is not good.

When was the last time you played 0AD? My 4 year old lap top plays at least single player fine with up to 100 or 200 units on each side on larger maps with up to 4 sides active. So like 800 units.

Based on recent posts by the people who do multiplayer its doing fine there too. Further more Ykkrosh is spending considerable time optimizing the pathfinding to improve performance. And the graphics are massively superior to any Glest derivative as well as having a far more customizable system with prop points and I do believe with functioning turrets and what not. They also did a fabulous improvement in their water system among other graphical advances and they have just completed a new sound manager.

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #35 on: 16 December 2012, 22:13:45 »
I like it Zoythrus! But the Romans should be defense and strength just very expensive. Indians should gather resources fast, but be cheap, weak and numerous.

Particle effects don't bother me much..

Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

ElimiNator

  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,391
  • The MegaGlest Moder.
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #36 on: 16 December 2012, 22:14:53 »
Personally I think you should create a megapack with more fantasy elements and not less. 0 A.D. is far and away superior in terms of historical factions and if MegaGlest attempts to compete there they will lose.
0 A.D is rather bad, I have seen it. The models and techtrees may be good but that is about how far it goes. Game is choppy on good machines and mutiplayer is not good.

When was the last time you played 0AD? My 4 year old lap top plays at least single player fine with up to 100 or 200 units on each side on larger maps with up to 4 sides active. So like 800 units.

Based on recent posts by the people who do multiplayer its doing fine there too. Further more Ykkrosh is spending considerable time optimizing the pathfinding to improve performance. And the graphics are massively superior to any Glest derivative as well as having a far more customizable system with prop points and I do believe with functioning turrets and what not. They also did a fabulous improvement in their water system among other graphical advances and they have just completed a new sound manager.
I have never played it actually, I saw the dev version on my dads comp.
Get the Vbros': Packs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5!

MoLAoS

  • Ornithopter
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #37 on: 16 December 2012, 22:21:53 »
The relevant point is the time. What Alpha release number? 11 works fine imo. They are releasing 12 soon.

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #38 on: 16 December 2012, 22:28:38 »
</off-topic>
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #39 on: 16 December 2012, 22:41:00 »
I like it Zoythrus! But the Romans should be defense and strength just very expensive. Indians should gather resources fast, but be cheap, weak and numerous.

Particle effects don't bother me much..

You have a point. Romans should be the Protoss equivalent, and the Indians should be the cheapest (spam!). As long as the Norse are the fastest overall faction in the MegaPack. Extra points if the Norse also have one of the best navies.

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #40 on: 16 December 2012, 23:17:24 »
I hope you've been studying your Faction Calculus.

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #41 on: 17 December 2012, 03:16:35 »
I hope you've been studying your Faction Calculus.
Trust me, I'm an avid studier of Faction Calculus, but truth be told, this is hard with the factions and resources present. I'm trying to keep their overall feels, but yet keep them all different (which is a very difficult task given MG's relatively limited modability).

Okay then, using the terms that TVTropes gives us:
Tech - Balanced
Magic - Cannons
Romans - Powerhouse/Cannons (think Protoss)
Norse - Powerhouse (and how!)
Indians - Subversive/Horde
Egyptian - Subversive/Economy (this isn't talked about on the TVTropes page, but I think that it fits them the best.)

softcoder

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Battle Machine
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,238
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #42 on: 17 December 2012, 03:43:48 »
P.S. as I remember more names I add these to my list:

MightMic
MrWar

I see this thread has once again become a trolling ground for people insisting on things before showing commitment. This was what I specifically said would lead to your own failure to convince dev's to do much for you. Asking Honda to paint the car red when you haven't committed to buying the car... nope.

MoLAoS

  • Ornithopter
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #43 on: 17 December 2012, 03:55:12 »
I've never heard of this trope previously but I have been attempting to subvert or break it ever since I started designing games in my mind.

I am going to attempt it in my current project and I wish you gentlemen good luck in freeing yourselves from it as well.

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #44 on: 17 December 2012, 03:59:17 »
Look at it from our perspective: Spend $100,000 for your car with no guarantee it's gonna get the V2 to V8 upgrade. :P

Jungle HD 1.0 will be coming out in a couple hours, so I'll be free'd up! I'd like to get plans setup along with that dropbox ASAP, and get organized to make it happen!
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

MoLAoS

  • Ornithopter
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
    • View Profile
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #45 on: 17 December 2012, 04:00:47 »
P.S. as I remember more names I add these to my list:

MightMic
MrWar

I see this thread has once again become a trolling ground for people insisting on things before showing commitment. This was what I specifically said would lead to your own failure to convince dev's to do much for you. Asking Honda to paint the car red when you haven't committed to buying the car... nope.

Let people dream there dreams. We get it, you want an equal commitment before you invest any effort. Fine. Don't do any work until other people have put in enough to convince you of their seriousness, but no need to be a negative nancy. Some people need to build up a large reservoir of positive energy before they dig in. If the stuff being discussed here never happens because the people involved didn't throw down no one is going to blame you.

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #46 on: 17 December 2012, 05:06:34 »
I'm trying to contribute an overall plan of attack. It's going nowhere until we have direction.

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #47 on: 17 December 2012, 05:30:52 »
@MIGHTYMIC!
Is the dropbox space ready?

@All interested in this development!
What do you think is the best avenue of communication? Skype? And is everyone set with Dropbox being used as a repository?

PLEASE SEND ME A PM IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN JOINING IN THE WORK AND WHAT YOUR SKILLS ARE.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #48 on: 17 December 2012, 06:23:05 »
Woah, this topic really took off. Allow me to present a concept for a possible storyline:

First of all, the setting. This concept goes the full fantasy route with the kingdom of Esther. The name's not important, pick whatever name you want. This kingdom is large and diverse. From mountains to forests to deserts, it's got everything, including six provinces, each ruled by a faction. The kingdom of Esther was ruled by a royal family of paladins for centuries before a plague of unknown cause wiped out the royal family, devastating the countryside. After ten lawless years, we now have seven factions competing for the right to rule Esther.

  • From the northern province of Mermia comes the Norsemen. The northern province is a rough tundra dominated by mountains and coniferous forests. They are strong willed, hardy, and blunt. Their focus is brute strength, and combat-wise, they're an offensive powerhouse. Difficult to control and expensive, but a hardy group of experienced warriors with reasonable defensive might.
  • South of Mermia lies the forestry wonderland of Olmas, home of the native Woodsmen tribe (formerly known as the Indian faction). They've been locked in a thousand year struggle with the Norsemen, to a point that neither side knows why they fight. The Woodsmen are cunning and devious. They lack the offensive strength of the Norsemen, but make up for that with their carefully placed defenses and traps. Their massive population and strong knowledge of the forests allots their survival. Whereas the Norsemen prefer hand to hand combat, the Woodsmen keep hidden in the trees with ranged weapons.
  • To the east of Mermia and Olmas lies the dark, barren mountains of Tyrosa, where the Wizards' Republic rules (formerly known as the Magic faction). The Wizards are intelligent and cold, largely populating the mountain range. Lacking strong defenses beyond the mountains, their offensive powers are largely from powerful spells with large blast radii. The seclusion of the Wizards, however, has lead to deep mistrust. They've been at war with the Brotherhood for the last decade due to beliefs that the other was the cause of the plague which wiped out the Paladins.
  • Further east, on the other side of the mountains of Tyrosa, lie Antor, ruled by The Brotherhood (formerly known as the Tech faction). Well-balanced in combat, the Brotherhood overthrew the previous government a hundred years ago using a combination of careful tactics and propaganda. The Brotherhood houses a steep distrust of magic and all things arcane, so were quick to blame the Wizards' Republic for the plague that caused so much distress across Esther. The Brotherhood is the most balanced faction, being composed of a mixture of offensive and defensive units with a share of melee and ranged units.
  • To the south of all this lies the desert province of Cathartene, ruled for as long as anyone can remember by the Desert Tenacity (mixture of the Egypt and Persian factions, since this is our own universe, and the Egypt faction is too obvious of an Egypt rip-off). Diverse and an economic powerhouse, Carthartene is the largest of the provinces, boasting a large population, but the desert provides poor natural defenses. The large and diverse population is the Desert Tenacity's greatest asset in war. Thankfully, its merchant position has allowed the Desert Tenacity to escape accusations for the cause of the plague, but the Tenacity has its own ideas.
  • And to the west of Olmas lies the plains province of Atland, ruled by The Legion (formerly known as the Romans faction). The Legion is a lawfully neutral faction, with the highest position being judge magistrates, whom roam the land in hopes of providing justice. They persecute crime and resolve wrongs. All the provinces respect the rights of the magistrates. While The Legion points no fingers at the cause of the plague, they have devoted all their resources into finding the source, and have suspicions of their own. In battle, The Legion has very strong defensive capabilities with comparatively powerful offensive capabilities. While the common-folk tend to have a distrusting attitude towards magic, the magistrates have been known to use magic when they deem it necessary.

In the center of the country lies the neutral hold of Ebum, the palace once held by the paladins. It has lied dormant and abandoned since the fall of the paladins.

And a map of what that would look like:


And a quick overview of the factions following this storyline:


So what's the reason for all this back story? Well, I could argue that the story is the most important part of a game. It binds the game together. It's the glue that holds everything else in place. Also, it makes it possible to have a memorable campaign. You probably noticed all this stuff about a plague in the faction descriptions. That's the basic premise for the scenarios. Every faction would have their own branch of scenarios. It always starts out with "who unleashed this plague?". The factions go to war against each other as they carry out their suspicions or other factions carry out their own. Ultimately, none of the factions were responsible for the plague, but rather the paladins were eradicated by an invader that wished to usurp the thrown. As proven by our own actions, the death of the paladins turned the factions against each other, providing an easy route to conquest. In all six different campaigns, the final scenario is a "boss battle" against a powerful foe capable of producing swarm units against you, unleashing powerful area attacks, etc. This is the only aspect that isn't currently possible with MegaGlest, as there is no way to create a faction that is unique to a scenario (does not appear as a choice in custom games). It would, however, be an incredibly simple feature to add (all that's needed is custom games to not show the faction as an option).

Anyway, if we're serious about revamping MegaGlest, it's obvious that Softcoder is non-committal, but that should not matter. The MegaPack and its resources are all CC-BY-SA. If we can finish the mod, then the MegaGlest developers can choose for themselves if it's better than the MegaPack (also, can we seriously call it something besides "the MegaPack"?). The worse that can happen? We have a full blown epic mod.

At any rate, I think the first thing we need to do is decide on the storyline. I submitted my concept above (note that all names are "working names" and can be changed, the key point is a backstory that combines the factions as well as making the factions fit together rather than being a jumbled mess from all eras). Once we have a story, we can take a closer look at the techtree. We can determine which units should go, where new units should be added, units that could be tweaked, etc, to fit within these descriptions. From that point, we can look at the media. What models should be redone? Obviously the Norsemen, Indians, and such as mostly retextured stuff. Might have been fine when the MegaPack was first released, but that's simply too low quality today. So figure out unit by unit which ones deserve new models, and make a list of them. People can then choose what they'll model and submit it to the dropbox repository.

I propose that we set a hard rule that when uploading a model to the repository, you must upload the source files as well. The reason for this is that someone who's a better animator can reanimate the model, or perhaps someone notices the texture isn't mapped very well and wants to redo that. There's a lot of different ways that models could be tweaked in the future, so the blend file (etc) should be made available.

As for an avenue of communication, I'd prefer the forum boards. While not being as real-time as, say, Skype, they provide better formatting, allow multiple threads of discussion, are easy to post images in, and so on. For quick, real time discussion, IRC might be a better choice than Skype, as it doesn't require an account or the like. Alternatively, we could use a publicly available Google Doc page. It would make it possible to have a techtree outline while allowing people to add comments and change it as they like (with modifications viewable).

At any rate, if there are enough serious people interested in this project, I am interested in helping as well. I don't know how much time I have on my hands in the future, but would like to throw my hat in the ring for the scenarios process. I also am capable of modeling, texturing, and animating, however, my animation skills really suck and I don't understand the animation method used by some others like John.d.h (I'd a tutorial, by the way).

EDIT: Also, while we're rethinking the MegaPack, I'd also like to propose we consider adding a hero unit to each faction. The hero would be a unit that there can only be one of at a time. It'd be very strong, but very expensive (so bit loss if it dies). If possible (via future feature), I'd like to see a "cool-down" before another can be produced. Each faction would have a unique hero unit fitting to the faction's theme. For example, I already mentioned magistrates as a key character for The Legion. They could be a powerful regular unit (like the general), or it could be a one-of-a-kind hero unit with power to burn. The Wizards' Republic, for example, could have some type of arcane beast. A godlike being (not "Thor", because this is our own universe) could be the unique unit of the Norsemen. Just possibilities.
« Last Edit: 17 December 2012, 06:47:25 by Omega »
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

Hagekura

  • Archmage
  • ******
  • Posts: 524
    • View Profile
    • Hageus_Iaponicus(@Hageus_Hagekura)さん | Twitter
Re: I've been thinking this for a looong time.
« Reply #49 on: 17 December 2012, 07:14:08 »
I think having this kind of discussions is fine... sometimes.
At least it could serve to stimulate a community some. It seems community activity recently (especially modding section) is very dead. So even a discussion about less possible plan is better than nothing. hmn... How should I put it? well,  Even a dead tree brings prosperity to the mountain.

As for revamping megapack, I'm basically sympathetic to this idea. I think megapack isn't so bad but it hadn't upgraded for a long time (except romans) while megaglest engine itself is constantly upgraded. megapack could use some recent mg features like attack-boosts, particle systems, and many more.
But you really have to bring some real stuffs to convince mg dev team to adopt your idea.  How about you stary by reanimating some of megapack units, Archmage? I know you are good at it. Making efforts step by step leads to good results.
Bushido to iu wa shinu koto to mitsuketari.

Japanese Faction Mod

 

anything