MegaGlest Refit - Norse

[Zoythrus]

So we're gonna give norse the best offense and the best defense because it's nifty? If we're gonna make a faction strong like that it should be the legion. They were actually that powerful.

That's the magic of it! The only defensive structure is horrendously expensive, and only really powerful if you can level it up. So, while it may be one of the best, the Romans are going to get something even better (in offense, defense, and cost effectiveness), and it prevents you from spamming them. The underlying concept is "I have just enough resources for 1 of these things.....where to put it?"

Have some faith in me, Arch, I know what I'm doing.

(oh, and to make it a little better, I've removed some of the HP, but increased the attack power. That way, it's still powerful, but ultimately reflects the faction.)

[-Archmage-]

Better, I'll have faith in your then.

[Zoythrus]

Just to be clear, taking down a Citadel is going to be an uphill battle (if not impossible) without some sort of anti-structure units (and even then, demolishing one will still be a pain!). If Glest could do achievements, taking down a Citadel single-handedly would be one.

[Omega]

Fine. We'll have to give the defensive building slower and weaker attacks, so they can't decimate an entire army before falling. They should be helpful, not the entire defense of the base. Oh, and big. Don't want to see them spammed everywhere. Perhaps we should set a limit of one citadel, two forts, and three camps?

[Zoythrus]

Fine. We'll have to give the defensive building slower and weaker attacks, so they can't decimate an entire army before falling. They should be helpful, not the entire defense of the base. Oh, and big. Don't want to see them spammed everywhere. Perhaps we should set a limit of one citadel, two forts, and three camps?

I can agree with the 1,2,3 limits; but I want defensive structures to actually be useful against an army (not just the Njord one). Since they're structures, they're going to be difficult to topple anyways, but I want a Citadel to be able to take a few hits from a few siege engines before being felled. If you allowed a Njord/Roman player to build a super defense, you deserve to suffer to take it down!

[-Archmage-]

Yea, the max amount of defense should be able to fend off a lot. I don't like the idea of limits, then it becomes difficult to expand.

[Omega]

Yea, the max amount of defense should be able to fend off a lot. I don't like the idea of limits, then it becomes difficult to expand.

Well, limits are generally bad, sure, but in the case of the citadel, it's too powerful to allow multiples in the same base. An alternative could be to prevent them from being built within x tiles of each other (thus ensuring that a second could only be in a new base), but that's not currently possible and seems overcomplicated. I think the limits work fine, especially since a base with a citadel and two forts is still a force to be reckoned with. An expensive force to be reckoned with. The cost of a citadel is enough that you could create a small offensive army.

[-Archmage-]

Of course you can have a citadel at one base, and 3 camps at another, then 2 forts at a third... I guess that works fine.

[Psychedelic_hands]

Why does the citadel have to be a uber leet unit? If nords are meant to have weaker defenses, then having to upgrade to get a reasonable defense structure is still a downside, yet still being a unique aspect of gameplay. (Without having lame limitations put on to make things overly complex) Yah? I think that is a pretty good compromise.

@Hands: I'd like to switch your "farm" model to be the longhouse, and the "castle" model to be the barracks. Your longhouse model looks like a longhouse, no one in a million years would guess "farm", and I don't even think we have a 'castle' unit any longer.

I'm reasonably against this for a few reasons:

[big]1. I could make a much better main building than that house model, I mean... its just a house man?[/big]

2. Call it a Farm house instead of just a farm, it's a more unique name + makes sense! Names are easy to work around.
3. It's the size of Tech's farm.
4. It doesn't have a proper door.

Please let me have this one.

[Omega]

[big]1. I could make a much better main building than that house model, I mean... its just a house man?[/big]

2. Call it a Farm house instead of just a farm, it's a more unique name + makes sense! Names are easy to work around.
3. It's the size of Tech's farm.
4. It doesn't have a proper door.

Please let me have this one.

I have to agree with Hands on this one.

And I'm neutral to the citadel issue, but Hands does have a point. The Romans are supposed to be the ones with very strong defense. Other possibilities include reducing the stats of the three defensive units so that the camp is very weak, the fortress is only about defense tower strength, and the citadel is the only critically "powerful" defense unit, but no more health than the main building. Or we could cut the citadel and give it to the legion/romans in some form or another. That would leave the Njord with two tiers. Strong, but not nearly so defensively powerful that it could wreck balance.

[-Archmage-]

Something's going to have to be added to the "farm" then. Because it doesn't resemble a 'farm' at all...

[Zoythrus]

I was pondering the idea of giving the citadel to the Romans before....

As I had mentioned before, I wanted to give the Njord a defense that was very strong, but the costs and time needed would make it a bit impractical, to keep the numbers down low.

To appease you all, what if I did this: I'll make the camp similar to the Defense Tower, but with a higher cost, lower HP, and a slightly weaker but faster attack. Then, the fort would be the next step up, but you'd need to have to invest a good chunk of resources and time. The fort wouldn't be uber powerful, but it could hold off an army until your troops could make it. How does that sound?

[Omega]

I was pondering the idea of giving the citadel to the Romans before....

As I had mentioned before, I wanted to give the Njord a defense that was very strong, but the costs and time needed would make it a bit impractical, to keep the numbers down low.

To appease you all, what if I did this: I'll make the camp similar to the Defense Tower, but with a higher cost, lower HP, and a slightly weaker but faster attack. Then, the fort would be the next step up, but you'd need to have to invest a good chunk of resources and time. The fort wouldn't be uber powerful, but it could hold off an army until your troops could make it. How does that sound?

I think this is the best compromise. Others' opinions?

[Zoythrus]

I'll also allow both the camp and fort to store resources (to make them mini-bases). Forts will also be able to put down its weapons and train Axemen, as a compliment to its slightly weaker status (and to get troops to the enemy as fast as possible, which is what they're all about [Romans will get to be able to do all of these things, but much more efficiently]).

Just because they're cost inefficient doesn't mean that they can't be useful.

[-Archmage-]

I like it! Although I think the Defense Tower is rather weak to compare to..

@Hands: Let's debate in skype and figure out where you model is going.

[Zoythrus]

Actually, I was just thinking about something!

I'm going to move the camp/fort (and the Roman Citadel) into a brand new category - "Fortress." This is different from "Towers." Fortresses are are expensive and slow to construct, but put down a very sturdy defense when they are done (and will do secondary things like store resources, train units. etc). "Towers" on the other hand are the opposite, they are much cheaper, easy to construct, and can be spammed relatively easily (also creating a sturdy defense). The "Defense Tower" would be a tower. Now, not every faction will have a Fortress defensive structure, but only the Njord will have no Towers.

Since they will have no "Towers," they're at a severe loss, since they can't defend a location without laying down a good deal of resources. I'm going to boost the stats of the Camp/Fort on the spreadsheet now, to reflect that they're going to be far above a Tower (in terms of defense), but just hard to acquire.

[Omega]

I'll also allow both the camp and fort to store resources (to make them mini-bases). Forts will also be able to put down its weapons and train Axemen, as a compliment to its slightly weaker status (and to get troops to the enemy as fast as possible, which is what they're all about [Romans will get to be able to do all of these things, but much more efficiently]).

While I agree with letting them store a small amount of resources, I strongly disagree with having them produce anything. The main issue is that you can't attack while producing, and the AI is even worse at handling this. We'd end up with a useless defensive building.

Not to mention the axeman is already produced by the armoury. What's the point of making it from a more expensive, specialized building when I could just construct another armoury (which has more versatile production, too).

Since they will have no "Towers," they're at a severe loss, since they can't defend a location without laying down a good deal of resources. I'm going to boost the stats of the Camp/Fort on the spreadsheet now, to reflect that they're going to be far above a Tower (in terms of defense), but just hard to acquire.

They can't be too strong, though. We don't want an entire army to be decimated by a single building.

[Zoythrus]

Since they will have no "Towers," they're at a severe loss, since they can't defend a location without laying down a good deal of resources. I'm going to boost the stats of the Camp/Fort on the spreadsheet now, to reflect that they're going to be far above a Tower (in terms of defense), but just hard to acquire.

They can't be too strong, though. We don't want an entire army to be decimated by a single building.

A fort will be strong enough to make your opponent think twice about attacking without anti-structure units.

[-Archmage-]

http://www.lucidchart.com/invitations/accept/50e61a80-1d80-4223-8644-36920afdae7f

Check it out!

[Omega]

I think it's time for us to define these upgrades.

[Zoythrus]

I think it's time for us to define these upgrades.

Armory:
Bearded Axes - +25% damage increase for axe units.
Light the Arrows - Allows Bowmen to use their anti-structure secondary attack.
Tempered Steel - Gives a +20% increase to HP.
Immigrant Carpenters - Increases structure regen by +10 and +25% HP. 

Farmhouse:
Wasteland Survival: Increases the HP and build/repair speed of Thrulls by +150 and +25% respectively..
Mead Distilleries: Increases unit movespeed by +30% and attack speed by +20%.

Stave Church:
Berserkergang: Gives all units +5(?) HP regen.
Heart of Valor: Allows for the training of Jarls.
Vahalla's Blessing: Allows for the invocation of Valkyries and Einherjar.

[ElimiNator]

I line em' all except:

Bearded Axes (Since when could axes grow beards)

Immigrant Carpenters (sounds weird) How About: Advanced Carpentry

Wasteland Survival (Doesn't sound right)

[Zoythrus]

I line em' all except:

Bearded Axes (Since when could axes grow beards)

Immigrant Carpenters (sounds weird) How About: Advanced Carpentry

Wasteland Survival (Doesn't sound right)

*sigh*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearded_axe

When it comes to "Immigrant Carpenters," irl Norse were expert merchants; but since the Nomads have taken the role as "merchant," I wanted to reflect this trait as an influx of immigrants. Keep in mind, that "immigrant" doesn't necessarily refer to the country, but could refer to your base. Thus, the upgrade just calls for a group of professional carpenters to keep your base in check. Oh, and there is no "advanced carpentry" aside from engraving or other skill work. These carpenters are not around to make your forts look better.

"Wasteland Survival" is based on the idea that the Njord come from a frozen wasteland. Now, while the Njord forces you control may not currently be in said wasteland, the Thrulls can still gain important knowledge and practices gleaned from their ancestors. This upgrade reflects a giant training seminar for your Thrulls that increases their survivability and their skills with a hammer.

[ElimiNator]

Regardless, most people won't know everything and we don't want the upgrades sounding so funny to them do we?

[Zoythrus]

Regardless, most people won't know everything and we don't want the upgrades sounding so funny to them do we?

WHEN we get tooltips, it'll all make sense!