Author Topic: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads  (Read 50929 times)

Zoythrus

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
« Reply #25 on: 19 December 2012, 18:57:39 »
Remember, Elim, this project is to make factions that resemble their source material without actually *being* their source material.

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
« Reply #26 on: 19 December 2012, 18:59:29 »
I don't think all the army should be produced from the main structure, maybe a barracks type thing?

Also will there be no pyramids?
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
« Reply #27 on: 19 December 2012, 19:01:33 »
Would everyone working on this faction please send their emails to Mightymic, he is the dropbox man! You will get access to the new man model and all of the current work.

@Pyramids: These could be upgrade buildings, but other than that they have no purpose. I don't wanna see mummies again. That funny at first but really lame after a while. Other than that pyramids are kinda large and pointless.
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
« Reply #28 on: 19 December 2012, 19:05:16 »
no pyramids, because pyramids are for death kings and not for fighting ... maybe for producing heroes

barracks would be ok ... in form of a military camp/tent? 

The garden is not for food, but to boost nearby buildings to produce faster (because the people like their work more, when they see flowers)
« Last Edit: 19 December 2012, 19:18:44 by MuwuM »

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #29 on: 19 December 2012, 19:47:19 »

Zoythrus

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #30 on: 19 December 2012, 19:51:38 »
Hey, can you allow me to edit it? I would like to contribute.

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #31 on: 20 December 2012, 01:51:27 »
One thing that you might want to sort out early is the technology level / time period you're working with.  It doesn't seem ideal to mix mamluks from the 900s with Bronze Age technology like the khopesh.  I do really like the idea of buying troops at the slave market, though.  I'd probably merge the cataphract and mamluk unit, since most of what I'm seeing about mamluks puts them as elite heavy cavalry, and maybe add another type of mercenary/slave elite soldier that you could hire/purchase at the market.  Maybe a mamluk cataphract and mamluk marksman?

In my opinion, it probably works better to not have the entire faction based on nomads, as that precludes a lot of advanced technology and development.  You can't really mine iron if you never stay put, and there's only so much you can trade for with milk and meat.  In a lot of places, the nomadic herders maintain strong ties with the settled peoples, so having nomadic units fighting as irregulars alongside more regimented troops makes sense.  Nomads are great at moving quickly (it's really their defining trait), but can't be weighed down by armor or heavy weapons, and they have to be hardy to survive so long out in the desert, so they make perfect sense as light camelry.  I'd put a camel rider as an anti-cavalry unit because their stench is supposed to alarm horses.  I know about MG's attack boost, but is there a way to reverse it and have an aura that weakens enemies?  Their speed and lack of armor would also make them ideal as archers because they wouldn't survive long in melee.  Speed, long range, and an anti-horse aura would make them a good knight killer (if they had crossbows or guns, they'd be perfect at it).

Zoythrus

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #32 on: 20 December 2012, 01:54:46 »
One thing that you might want to sort out early is the technology level / time period you're working with.  It doesn't seem ideal to mix mamluks from the 900s with Bronze Age technology like the khopesh.  I do really like the idea of buying troops at the slave market, though.  I'd probably merge the cataphract and mamluk unit, since most of what I'm seeing about mamluks puts them as elite heavy cavalry, and maybe add another type of mercenary/slave elite soldier that you could hire/purchase at the market.  Maybe a mamluk cataphract and mamluk marksman?

In my opinion, it probably works better to not have the entire faction based on nomads, as that precludes a lot of advanced technology and development.  You can't really mine iron if you never stay put, and there's only so much you can trade for with milk and meat.  In a lot of places, the nomadic herders maintain strong ties with the settled peoples, so having nomadic units fighting as irregulars alongside more regimented troops makes sense.  Nomads are great at moving quickly (it's really their defining trait), but can't be weighed down by armor or heavy weapons, and they have to be hardy to survive so long out in the desert, so they make perfect sense as light camelry.  I'd put a camel rider as an anti-cavalry unit because their stench is supposed to alarm horses.  I know about MG's attack boost, but is there a way to reverse it and have an aura that weakens enemies?  Their speed and lack of armor would also make them ideal as archers because they wouldn't survive long in melee.  Speed, long range, and an anti-horse aura would make them a good knight killer (if they had crossbows or guns, they'd be perfect at it).

Well, we agreed that these factions would be historically based, but not necessarily historically accurate. They are neither Persian nor Egyptian, so we're not confined to certain historical standards. But ultimately, it's all up to Muwum.

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #33 on: 20 December 2012, 08:31:30 »
Aura that weakens enemies is no problem in MG. Only problem would be to harm only enemy horses.

The mix of ages does not make any problem as long as the visual design of the units fit's together.

As there are so many requesting camel I think I have to discard my restriction. So camel unit could make sense as second buy-able unit with some kind of ranged damage (archer-style or slinger-style) and some kind of movement reduction to nearby enemies.

I'd like to keep the concept of buy-able and produce-able units.

ADDED to GoogleDoc.
« Last Edit: 20 December 2012, 08:37:22 by MuwuM »

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #34 on: 20 December 2012, 09:47:55 »
Concerning the camel: Camel archers were commonly used, and would fit well.

Concerning pyramids: I'd rather not use pyramids. There's a number of reasons for this. First of all, the "Desert Nomads" (if we're using this as a name for the faction) are NOT Egypt. We're looking at a combination of the Egyptian and Persian factions, sure, but this is a "make believe" little figment of its own universe. The pyramids are easily recognized as belonging to the Egypt of our world. Secondly, pyramids are a burial ground. They're a fancy tomb. While producing mummies might make sense, we're not using mummies, and producing other units doesn't make much sense. Even the "good/bad deities" that we may be using as heroes aren't Egyptian. They're Persian, but obscure enough to just be a reference.

Concerning producing units from the main building: I ask, why not? I think producing units from the main building would make the Desert Nomads unique from the other factions. We could have all but one unit have building prerequisites (presumably the slinger). This would allow the Desert Nomads to have a slight advantage in getting started: they can produce a unit without having to build anything. Of course, that unit is very weak, but it's something different. I think it's nice to have some factions a bit different than others, so they don't feel like clones of each other. It also can radically change the gameplay for each faction, making playing as a new faction unique. As well, this also makes it a more economically based faction. The worker units and most military units are produced from the same building, so you can only be producing one or the other. The choice of which to produce becomes more important, and building multiple palaces is more important (and being very expensive, you'd need some hefty capital for that palace).

Question about attack boosts: I think I might be misunderstanding how attack-boosts. Work. Are they the same as an emanation? I see from their syntax that they can modify stats for a specific target within a radius as well as apply particle effects to the target. I was initially under the impression they activate only when attacking or the like ("attack" boost), but that doesn't make sense with the garden, so I think I misunderstand them. Also another question: the "allow multiple boosts" tag is applied to each individual attack boost. What happens, then, if one allowing stacking and one that doesn't overlap? Does the "allow multiple boosts" tag only apply to the exact same type of attack boost or all in general?
« Last Edit: 18 June 2016, 19:33:22 by filux »
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #35 on: 20 December 2012, 11:38:08 »
Camel archer: accepted - much requested - useful for game-play

Pyramids: discarded as they are not fitting to nomads.

production in main building: maybe produce infantry and worker in main building and cavalry in market or stable.

Attack-boosts: are modifications to nearby units (positive and/or negative / enemy and/or friend)  they can be defined for each skill (so even stop-skill) and multiple boosts means multiple instances of the same boost.

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #36 on: 20 December 2012, 13:21:14 »
Attack-boosts: are modifications to nearby units (positive and/or negative / enemy and/or friend)  they can be defined for each skill (so even stop-skill) and multiple boosts means multiple instances of the same boost.
Ah, been wondering for a long time. That particularly clears things up. Time to fix the wiki page.
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #37 on: 20 December 2012, 18:10:46 »
I do not like the garden unit.
Not the name or its purposes.
AI wont use it correctly.
I vote we chuck it.
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Zoythrus

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #38 on: 20 December 2012, 18:19:07 »
I do not like the garden unit.
Not the name or its purposes.
AI wont use it correctly.
I vote we chuck it.
You're so poetic. :P

I think that we should temporarily ditch it. Then bring it back WHEN MG gets emanations.

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #39 on: 20 December 2012, 18:52:09 »
I think that we should temporarily ditch it. Then bring it back WHEN MG gets emanations.
They already do. Apparently attack boosts are just a somewhat confusing name for emanations. While attack boosts can't be named, etc, they perform the same functions as emanations. Anyway, I think we should keep the garden. The AI constructs buildings in a way that the garden will be used correctly, provided only one is built (since we're going to go the non-stackable boost path, aren't we?). Ideally, there'd be a way to tell the AI to only build one, but since that is not possible, we can set a unit cap of 1 for the garden.
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #40 on: 20 December 2012, 20:52:17 »
I think that we should temporarily ditch it. Then bring it back WHEN MG gets emanations.
They already do. Apparently attack boosts are just a somewhat confusing name for emanations. While attack boosts can't be named, etc, they perform the same functions as emanations. Anyway, I think we should keep the garden. The AI constructs buildings in a way that the garden will be used correctly, provided only one is built (since we're going to go the non-stackable boost path, aren't we?). Ideally, there'd be a way to tell the AI to only build one, but since that is not possible, we can set a unit cap of 1 for the garden.
I don't like capping something just to help the AI, what if someone wants to build a garden in another base?

The garden will only affect things in a defined range right?
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #41 on: 21 December 2012, 00:02:29 »
Yes, but I'd presume the range would be large enough to cover the average base.

I agree, capping things to help the AI sucks. We would really benefit with better AI control. If we want to be ambitious, Lua AIs, or on the basic side, a way to tell the AI how many of a unit it should try to build in its base (helpful as we could tell it that building 2 barracks is great, but building 2 archmage towers is not).
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #42 on: 21 December 2012, 02:58:31 »
Yes, but I'd presume the range would be large enough to cover the average base.

I agree, capping things to help the AI sucks. We would really benefit with better AI control. If we want to be ambitious, Lua AIs, or on the basic side, a way to tell the AI how many of a unit it should try to build in its base (helpful as we could tell it that building 2 barracks is great, but building 2 archmage towers is not).
Actually, you can do that:

Code: [Select]
<ai-behavior min-static-resource-count="100">
<worker-units>
</worker-units>
<building-units>
<unit name="archmage_tower" minimum="1"/>
<unit name="barracks" minimum="2"/>
<unit name="farm" minimum="2"/>
</building-units>
<resource-producer-units>
</resource-producer-units>
<warrior-units>
</warrior-units>
<upgrades>
</upgrades>
</ai-behavior>
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #43 on: 21 December 2012, 07:45:57 »
Yes, but I'd presume the range would be large enough to cover the average base.

I agree, capping things to help the AI sucks. We would really benefit with better AI control. If we want to be ambitious, Lua AIs, or on the basic side, a way to tell the AI how many of a unit it should try to build in its base (helpful as we could tell it that building 2 barracks is great, but building 2 archmage towers is not).
Actually, you can do that:

Code: [Select]
<ai-behavior min-static-resource-count="100">
<worker-units>
</worker-units>
<building-units>
<unit name="archmage_tower" minimum="1"/>
<unit name="barracks" minimum="2"/>
<unit name="farm" minimum="2"/>
</building-units>
<resource-producer-units>
</resource-producer-units>
<warrior-units>
</warrior-units>
<upgrades>
</upgrades>
</ai-behavior>
Oh, yes, forgot about that. Still, it can only tell a minimum, not a maximum. Not sure how the AI would treat a building with a minimum of 1. Would they only typically build one, or would they build more but with lower priority?
« Last Edit: 18 June 2016, 19:31:23 by filux »
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #44 on: 21 December 2012, 08:25:51 »
I'd like to keep the garden until we tested it and it doesn't work ...

if there is a minimum then it should not be too hard to add a maximum ...

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #45 on: 21 December 2012, 09:36:01 »
I'd like to keep the garden until we tested it and it doesn't work ...
We should probably test the garden with a placeholder, then, so as to avoid wasting modeling efforts. I don't see why it *wouldn't* work, though. I'm rather optimistic for it, though. Buildings like the garden also make the buildings of MegaGlest a bit more varied while making the faction a bit more unique.

I'd also like to point out that we really need to nail down what exactly we're doing. We can't start modeling and making art for the faction until we finish planning it. I happen to have a fair bit of time on my hands with the holiday season, and might be able to get a model or two done if we can figure out what we're doing (gonna need arch's base human for any humanoids, though).

I think the current plan outlaid by the Google Doc looks pretty good. The names need some work and it could use some more concept art (the palace, for example, has 2D concept art, which would be a bit difficult to transform into a model; I'd rather like to know what the side should look like rather than modeling blind). I'd also like to take a closer look at the upgrades. Here's my concept for upgrades (all names are working names; and can easily be changed to whatever sounds best):

  • Power of the Magi: Produced by the university. Increases max EP, EP regeneration, and attack strength of Magus and flying carpet
  • Worship: Produced by the university. Required to build the obelisk/momentum/stele, which can produce the hero units
  • Desert irrigation: Produced by the well. Increases movement, production, HP, and attack speed of all units by 10%. If MegaGlest acquires a future way to apply multiple different stat changes to different sets of units, also apply a 50% production speed increase to the wheat field.
  • Advanced irrigation: Produced by the well. Requires Desert irrigation. Increases attack strength of most units (all except magic based and hero units). If MegaGlest acquires a future way to apply multiple different stat changes to different sets of units AND the ability to modify the effects of attack boosts by a percentage, boost the attack-boosts of the well and garden by 50%.
  • Desert cavalry: Produced by the stables. Required to produce the mameluke and camel archer.
  • Craftsman secrets: Produced by the market. Increases attack strength of units with melee weapons and armour strength of units with metal or leather armor.
  • Enhanced supplies: Produced by the market. Increases slave's build speed by 33%. If the ability to change repair speed becomes available, increase that by 33% as well. If the ability to modify production costs in upgrades, decrease production costs for all buildings by 10%.
As noted, the well produces mostly stat based upgrades, based on the idea that water is a difficult necessity for desert peoples. Two of the three cavalry units require upgrades before they can be produced. That leaves the Cataphract without needing an upgrade. The Cataphract is described as heavy melee, though. Perhaps the upgrade should be required for the Cataphract and the Mameluke can be produced without an upgrade (the Mameluke is described as a fast raider with bonuses to cavalry). That bonus reminds me that if we're developing the factions separately, we need to coordinate on the attack and armour types. Ideally, their'll be a large number of types so that we can have things like a cavalry unit effective against cavalry and a Khopesh warrior that's effective against infantry. That's done easily enough by having "anti-cavalry" and "anti-infantry" attack types, which would be effective against the armour types generally used by cavalry (which would need its own armour type) and infantry (metal, organic, leather, etc). That discussion is best done in the generic MG refit topic.

At any rate, several upgrades have extended ideas. In addition to what they can do, I'd like to see them do more if later features become available. MegaGlest's upgrade system is really basic, and I'd hope to see that expanded on. In particular, the ability to apply different stat increases to different sets of units, such as giving unit A an attack strength boost and unit B an attack speed boost. GAE did this with an enhancements tag, which allowed these different enhancements to be applied to different units. I'd also like to see the ability to increase by multipliers (realized now that's not already possible, so the above descriptions would have to be tweaked slightly). Finally, some things like repair speed, production costs, and attack boost effects can't be modified by upgrades. The latter two only make sense to increase by a multiplier.
« Last Edit: 18 June 2016, 19:30:56 by filux »
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #46 on: 21 December 2012, 13:30:43 »
I will try to build the tech-tree in the GoogleDoc within the next few days with only placeholder-models... (mainly copy from old project, with placeholder-texture)... will be available in Dropbox, when I go something done.

Updates sounds good at the moment ... working-names of course ...

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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #47 on: 21 December 2012, 17:51:20 »
Oh, yes, forgot about that. Still, it can only tell a minimum, not a maximum. Not sure how the AI would treat a building with a minimum of 1. Would they only typically build one, or would they build more but with lower priority?
The AI would have to build all the buildings/units it says to, then it could build more of a kind.

The human Arch used looks like the regular tech worker model, I think we want more than one base mesh so the units will look more varied instead of uniform?

If so I can make a slightly fatter shorter all-around different human mesh.
« Last Edit: 18 June 2016, 19:30:44 by filux »
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #48 on: 21 December 2012, 18:05:08 »
Elim, the mesh can be modified and keep it's animation. That's the point of the future community release. Bones, UV, 3 different detailed movement animations. Making a totally different model would be pointless as you can already make the dude shorter and fatter or more ripped or what have you in just a few minutes. :)
Modifying the animation for weapons/clothing/ a potbelly is also much much easier and faster.
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Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
« Reply #49 on: 21 December 2012, 18:12:10 »
Yes, but if we just modify the same mesh it will still look similar.

If a couple meshes were created they would differ better, also we don’t want all they guys to run the same so there will need to be more than one animation.

If you don't mine Arch I will try my hand at animating a walk cycle and see if it looks any good.
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