Author Topic: General view on new features  (Read 1432 times)

titi

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General view on new features
« on: 29 July 2014, 21:21:21 »
Currently we see many new code contributors showing up adding new features, which is really nice. But here are some concerns I have with features that are just added to maybe use them later:

A problem I see is, that there is a certain danger that every new feature might introduce new bugs. This is especially a problem when those features are more of a cool idea but they don't get instantly used. MGs main target is to be a playable game and not about  trying to be a featue loaded enginge which is maybe used by "someone" .
In my eyes It is ok to add new features if there are existing mods ( which already showed some good progress )  are asking for them and they will instantly use,. But it is not ok to add a feature which is just used by someone to play around a bit with the engine. The risk to break something just to make someone have a good time to try funny things with the engine is not worth it!

So please keep this in mind when you add/suggest new features.
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FreshDumbledore

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #1 on: 29 July 2014, 21:45:38 »
O agree on the part that implemented features need to be well tested. No use to offer something and the first one who really tries to use it runs in severe bugs (maybe without even knowing how to contact glest devs in irc and stuff). We could even loose (:* jammy) potential modders with that.

On the other hand, i think one of megaglests big advantages is that it is so easy to mod and that you can do a lot of things in your mods. Offering a feature that could be really usefull can also be nice if we dont have the urge to use it in one of our own mods right now.

I think we need to find some balance there.

Maybe point out how you want a feature to be developed titi (i assume this will go in the direction of discussing it in irc first and things). Many things happen in irc only. We could also try to involve more people from the forums (like for betatesting, reading pull request/code changes..).

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kagu

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #2 on: 29 July 2014, 22:22:31 »
Titi I think your post may "demotivate" many potential contributors, or I didn't understood it well.
I think the best approach should be the model "Experimental-Testing-Stable" .
Everyone who wants to contribute should do it in Experimental branch
When MG Team feels that something should be implemented from Experimental , they put it on Testing
And so on ...
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Coldfusionstorm

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #3 on: 29 July 2014, 22:30:36 »
I agree, I think that is a too strict policy here, We have wished for more developers for such a long time and now that we are getting contributions you already think its too much?.

No. This is good and for now we should let most stable clean additions in, this is good. And to be honest, Megaglest is kinda borring now, Just long range units shooting at eachother techincally the engine is moving forward, but we need MORE momentum, we need to praise each and everyone addition we get. Im not saying we should not value quality and the line needs to be drawn somewhere but not here.

And since the codebase is pretty stable right now we should let all additions get in (except the worst coded).
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titi

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #4 on: 29 July 2014, 23:19:24 »
There is a danger that this is maybe demotivating that's true, but you cannot just go full power ahead without thinking about this. Games are a combination of code AND content  and that's what I want to keep in mind. I like many of the upcoming features, but just adding them to the code does not really help. There must be data which uses it otherwise its just "a cool idea".

and thats really not meant as a strict policy.

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Omega

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #5 on: 30 July 2014, 01:21:54 »
Long post -- if short on time, see the bottom of the post for a summary

Now, I have a feeling this thread is partly due to some of my recent changes...

It's a good point that unused features are dangerous. Normally, I strongly desire to remove unused code. However, one major issue that hasn't been pointed out so far is that these features require mods to use them, and it's difficult to say whether a mod will use a feature or not. In other words, if we implement some feature, will a modder use it? This is hard to say. I don't think we should limit ourselves to features that modders request. After all, people certainly have used features that were unsolicited. It's very easy to not realize that you could incorporate some feature until it already exists.

Back when I was actively making mods, I got a lot of ideas by just looking through GAE's feature list. I realized a number of places where I could use features in interesting ways. I'm pretty sure some of those ideas wouldn't have come up if the feature was not already in the engine. Long story short: possibilities breed creation.

Regarding the issue of content, I'd like to point out that I think the MegaPack is rather disappointing in terms of using features. I think the MegaPack has no overarching goal and nobody has any intention of actively developing it. We did have a topic some time back about revamping a new MegaPack, and it met a great deal of discussion. Ultimately, though, it fell short because (1) not enough modder interest (I've lost interest in modeling and texturing, and prefer to code) and (2) no guarantee of working out (it was very ambitious and there never was any guarantee it would even replace the MegaPack).

So, really, why don't we utilize features in the MegaPack (the kinds that don't require art, anyway)? Are we too scared of breaking the existing balance? For example, I'd like to again propose that we utilize the start-ep change to allow all units to start with full EP (rather than have to regenerate their EP). I propose we use more attack boosts (mostly on the late game units). Last time I checked, only the Roman General has an attack boost. Why not make some unit shoot its projectiles in groups of three (multiple projectiles)? Create an upgrade that boosts attack speed (I created a pull request for this, but not sure if this one is merged, yet)? Allow looting of resources from buildings (helps subsidize the extreme costs of attacking a base)?

In other words, why don't we actually use some of our features?

With that said, I do worry that being very restrictive about accepting features will hurt freelance contributions. When I started creating small features, I purposely cherry picked changes that I believed were very doable. After all, a new system (especially one so terrible documented as MG is) is a huge barrier. You can't do complicated changes right off the bat. Small, simple changes are a necessity for someone unfamiliar with the system (and this applies no matter how good of a programmer they are).

I spent quite a bit of time going through the feature requests board (and wish we could use a better medium for tracking feature requests and bugs). I did not see a whole lot of choices for features that could be doable by someone still learning the engine. I suspect this may be in part due to MG's small size. There's just not a whole lot of tiny little changes needed (programs like Firefox tend to have thousands of little issues which aren't severe enough for anyone to have bothered dealing with, but are very simple to fix).

Another note is that our documentation sucks. It's very difficult to use features when there's no single, organized place to find details about the features. The wiki is the place for this. Unfortunately, it's very outdated. Admittedly, this is partly my fault -- I keep telling myself to update the site, but never have the time or bother. Also, errors on the wiki can go unnoticed for a long time. Just last week, I fixed a big mistake on the attack-boost page that went unnoticed for a year and a half! And attack-boosts are one of MG's biggest features.

Finally, I'd like to point out that our modding is at what may be an all time low. There seems to be very few active modders at the moment. I suspect that this will hinder adoption of new features.

Quick summary of this post:


  • Modders may use features simply because they already exist
  • The MegaPack isn't using new MG features despite so many possibilities!
  • Developers unfamiliar with the engine need simple features to implement while they learn the engine
  • Our documentation blows
  • Active mod development is very quiet right now -- few people to utilize features
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Julius

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #6 on: 30 July 2014, 17:16:06 »
Experimental branch seems like a good idea.

A bit OT: I think modding will pick up again as soon as the graphics support some more advanced features like normal-maps (and maybe a standard skeleton based mesh-format).

Omega

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #7 on: 30 July 2014, 19:01:03 »
I disagree with the use of an "experimental" branch, by the way. I think that would actually make the problem worse. The only way to know for sure that we don't break a feature (since we don't have automated tests for this) is by using the feature. Putting features in experimental branches could lead to the feature never being used. Especially if we associate "experimental" with "unstable" (which isn't necessarily the case).
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titi

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #8 on: 30 July 2014, 21:26:41 »
Its exactly what omega says and please don't take this too serious!
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FreshDumbledore

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #9 on: 30 July 2014, 21:34:38 »
I like the idea of an improved megapack (with the new visual features). Would require no balancing if its just visual.

Coldfusionstorm

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #10 on: 30 July 2014, 22:20:01 »
I like the idea of an improved megapack (with the new visual features). Would require no balancing if its just visual.

It will also still be borring as s'**
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John.d.h

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #11 on: 31 July 2014, 02:05:24 »
Most of the factions in the MegaPack were made several years ago, and mostly by one person, namely Titi.  A lot has been learned since then and a lot of changes have been made to the engine, but very few to those original factions.

When GAE was being more actively developed, I started making a mod to make use of the features by just adding a few new units to Magitech.  Admittedly, the scope creeped a little and I ended up abandoning the project when GAE petered out, but I believe the core concept is solid.  Yes, it would require some rebalancing, but I think that kind of approach would work for the MegaPack as well.  That would be a lot easier than creating a new tech tree from scratch to test engine features.

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I haven't touched it in a long time, but I remember there was a healer unit (modeled, textured, and animated) for Magic, ships (mostly from Mr War's mods, I believe), and an amphibious transport vehicle (modeled and animated) for Wciow's Dwarf faction.  I don't know what else might be in there.

Coldfusionstorm

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #12 on: 31 July 2014, 16:01:49 »
Sure it all sounds like a good idea, but im so afraid of breaking anything in git that i avoid using it because i will not be able to fix it. Im willing to do work on this by forking the MG pack this way i could keep it updated with new features a mod that is based on the megapack (if titi is okay with this).

Downloadable from the modcenter.

The Goal of MegaPackAdvanced is as follows.

1.Getting new features implemented in use.
2.Game balanceing

Id really like to do this. but as i don't play alot of MG myself it's useless if other people dont at least support the idea.
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filux

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #13 on: 31 July 2014, 22:56:02 »
Sure it all sounds like a good idea, but im so afraid of breaking anything in git that i avoid using it because i will not be able to fix it. Im willing to do work on this by forking the MG pack this way i could keep it updated with new features a mod that is based on the megapack (if titi is okay with this)...
Forking a git repository and working on it, right?
If not then "support to the idea" may be very low, when isn't easy check what was changed and why.

...Downloadable from the modcenter...
In general packages in the mod's center are 'finished' and if something is finished and it is still a "old good techtree" then, why do not include it to the official repo?
Unless at the start you assume that your changes will not please the devs.   :|

...2.Game balanceing...
If it will be with assume that currently Megapack is balanced then all should be ok, in the other case your idea will be supported max. only by few people or maybe even maybe by only one 'loud' ;).

...Id really like to do this. but as i don't play alot of MG myself it's useless if other people dont at least support the idea...
If you will need help and testers then again using a git repo is the best idea.

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #14 on: 31 July 2014, 23:49:45 »
Would be best to make an official decision to replace megapack with a relaunch. Assuming that would happen i guess there would be multiple people which could participate.

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #15 on: 1 August 2014, 02:06:56 »
Forking a git repository and working on it, right?
If not then "support to the idea" may be very low, when isn't easy check what was changed and why.
How so?  Git does an excellent job of tracking changes, and doing it on git doesn't preclude anyone from posting screenshots and updates here on this forum as well.

Quote
If it will be with assume that currently Megapack is balanced then all should be ok, in the other case your idea will be supported max. only by few people or maybe even maybe by only one 'loud' ;).
If new features are introduced, then of course balance will break (or at least bend).  Imagine if they gave Battle Mages a new ability like an "attack-boost" that hits enemies and causes them to slowly burn.  That might make them more effective and even more of a FOO strategy to the point that it's an easy win.  That's the kind of thing that play-testing is needed for.

titi

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #16 on: 1 August 2014, 08:47:56 »
this gets offtopic  ::) => new thread
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kagu

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Re: General view on new features
« Reply #17 on: 26 August 2014, 11:54:20 »
I think the "experimental" branch is necessary , if someday someone needs that "feature/fix" its already in that branch.
Maybe MG as a Game will not use it, but as Engine it might.
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