Megaglest and Steam

[titi]

I am currently preparing a steam account to publish MegaGlest on steam.
Our Current plan is to take money for the game there, but OF COURSE the game stays free and open source!

Wait, MONEY?
The idea is, to sell the game ( for a low price !! ) to pay at least some of the hosting costs of our headless servers we currently mostly pay on our own.
And it has the advantage that you can make "sells" for an even lower price which is good to get new players.

Why publish it there?
The fact is there are the players! And MG really really needs more players! This is the main and only real reason to bring this to steam.
If we only get 10 new serious players like this I call it a big success already.

But WHO will pay something that he can get for free in another place ?
Well to be honest I am not too sure about this part but:
- People are so used to pay for games, that several people where disappointed that it is a free game!! I cannot believe it myself when I hear statements like this but its the truth.
- people are lazy! They want their games in steam and for this service they are willing to pay.
- and I hope there are some idealists who already own/know/love the game and can spend us some money by this easily.

[-Archmage-]

I think this is a great idea!

However, I think it would be smart to upgrade the content of the megapack(old models/animations, retextures, and ultra-goofy units) and polish the game up generally before-hand. I'm not trying to say that MegaGlest is bad, but rather that it needs to look it's best when we introduce it to tons of new potential players. Also naming the factions/units more originally/historically and little details like that will really help to sell the game to a new audience that isn't familiar with the flavor developed here.

Steam workshop? Mods? How will all this work?

What price do you have in mind?(USD) Also, focusing on the availability of free mods, and modability of the game itself I think should be one of the main selling points.

[Ishmaru]

I'm behind MG on this move! Best of luck to you.

I think MegaGlest value as a full game AND stable RTS engine would have best results. There was only one RTS engine on steam last I checked and MG is way more stable, not to mention MG has crossplatform multiplayer.

[kagu]

Whats the status of this ?

[titi]

a bit on hold, as I have no time at the moment,
Another problem are current bugs, which show up in windows, see here https://github.com/MegaGlest/megaglest-source/issues
Especially those which cause crashes on options screens are bad.

[Golkombie]

Great Idea, but as Archmage said, we need to make the game look good.
In addition, we cannot disappoint players for paying. for a free game. We need to give them virtual items. For examples: Factions, Skins, and/or early access to projects.

I suggest a price tag of $4.99 for the extras. Don't trust me on this since I don't know anything about the market.

Signing out, Golk the Roman

[-Archmage-]

The people on Steam would get prompt automatic updates, same with mods through the workshop(if Titi sets this up), easy networking through Steam groups/friends.
That being said, it is really easy to add a non-steam game to Steam...

I think the free + not free approach may be a bit dangerous.

[Golkombie]

I believe what's more dangerous are negative comments on Steam on how we rip them off. We need to provide Steam Users with exclusive items.

[Ishmaru]

1 who will make paid content?
2 how will you separate paid content if the engine and content is open sourced?
3 What kind of paid content would even be better than what's available for free all ready?

Steam and many other game marketplaces have an option for "pay what you want" price system. The creator can provide a default value and shoppers can pay more or less if that's their preferrences. People who want to donate may do so, and this will avoid negative reviews from paying for a free game.

I think Titi ultimately wants more players, that's why the push for steam. And if they make some money while they are at it all the better.

[-Archmage-]

I disagree with the exclusive items, gamers typically hate that type of marketing. And if we did paid content, we would almost certainly have to pay the person making the paid content.

I can't wait for the like feature that we may get(in the forum update). Pay what you want sounds like the perfect solution, not alienating any players but also providing a very simple way to bring in some money.

[Golkombie]

Oh. I did not realize you were considering the pay-what-you-want method. I thought Titi's suggestion implied a fixed value for steam games, so I suggested exclusive stuff for paid users. I'm just concerned about our potential player base.

In digression, you guys-developers and modders, need to revolutionize the game. At the moment, I believe the game can be pushed to Steam if we improve the graphics and improve the user interface. I believe Archmage is working on revitalizing the Egyptian faction. This will help polish Megaglest.
Just my two cents.

@Alket, Jammy,Titi, and friends: I plan to rejoin the gaming community as soon as I get my new computer(thus explaining my absence in the lobby for months).

[filux]

I'll add my cent.
First about Steam & me: I am a newbie on steam and I always will be because I am trying to avoid it as I can

I am not 100% sure what "pay what you want" mean (I know this in relation to mods and I know that many modders & players hate this method there) but Imo game should be cheap but never available as free on steam unless maybe some rare promotions like "for one hour is free during Christmas".

From my experience negative comments are very dangerous on the very beginning when game is free and later situation is slowly getting better. As non free game we have a chance to avoid trolls-testers (kind of "I love FPS games and minecraft but I will try and I will put bad review because it surprisingly isn't 'nice for me'") because game will be bought by people e.g. which at least like RTS genre.

...$4.99 for the extras...

Heh then how much for a game? because even few times more right? Imo at least now we should forget about mods/extras.

As titi mentioned, people should pay some minor money just for "having game on the steam" and also probably for having "achievements" there.

[-Archmage-]

Pay-what-you-want basically means the buyer chooses the price, and the seller chooses the minimum price(usually $0 in this method). In our case it would probably be free, or be an otherwise very low minimum because the game will still be available for free.

Pay-what-you-want is very consumer-friendly, I'm not sure what you're talking about. 

We have "troll-testers" on one side, and on the other, we have people that will be asked to pay for a free game. 

Golkombie meant that we need to bundle extras with the paid version of the game to please people who are buying a game that is free elsewhere.

Ultimately, I think growing the player-base is the most important part of this effort.

[filux]

Pay-what-you-want basically means the buyer chooses the price, and the seller chooses the minimum price(usually $0 in this method...

... so as I suspected.

Again "Free" is a bad idea. If we will get e.g. 250-500 bad reviews on the start from trolls vs 10 good reviews from normal players then it will be a disaster and probably huge anti motivation for MG team ... which may even end as ... (e.g. Mandate engine)
If there will be the only choose "free" or "not in steam" then my vote is: "not in steam".

...Pay-what-you-want is very consumer-friendly, I'm not sure what you're talking about.  ...

vs what?
Before steam introduced this method, mods depended from donations so "Pay-what-you-want after try" ... and after introduced quality of mods dropped a lot because pseudo modders had to just trick players for buying and this was end of their role. ... because good mods & modders are hard to distinguish from bad ones then by many people this is a method "trickster-friendly".

...We have "troll-testers" on one side, and on the other, we have people that will be asked to pay for a free game.  ...

People on steam "have demands" as I personally can understand this from people which paid something, but Imo people which doesn't pay shouldn't have any right for "demands" ... but do you think this fact will stop them?

...please people who are buying a game that is free elsewhere...

That's the point, they are not forced to buy, if they choosed to buy then they did this just because they love steam + they choosed to support development, otherwise they can download game from "not steam" free and this has to be mentioned in the description to "not trick people"
 ... so what please? ... Imo you guys are talking about trolls which ~ can't be pleased whatever you you will do, always not enough and always not good enough ...

[-Archmage-]

So...

-Free on Steam, Free on MegaGlest.org
-Have to rely on donations for upkeep(which will only become more demanding with more players).
+Satisfies desire to keep MG free.
+Potentially much larger player-base gains.
+Equal pricing everywhere.

-Paid on Steam, Free on MegaGlest.org
+Brings in money, pays for upkeep.
+Satisfies desire to keep MG free.
+Potentially larger player-base gains.
-Creates odd customer dynamic, by being asked to pay for a free game. (Could be rectified either with pay-what-you-want, and/or clear announcement that the game is FREE outside of Steam.)

-Paid on Both
+Brings in money, pays for upkeep.
-MG will now cost money.
-/+Lowest potential player-base gains.
+Equal pricing everywhere.

Having been a Steam member for many years, and played a lot of the free games offered, I think the idea that free games are covered in trolls is generally not true. Players are often impressed with what they can get for free, and I find it hard to believe that there's a noticeable amount of people sitting around pissing on free games 24/7. I know at least for myself, I'm much more likely to write a negative review for a game I paid for, because when I pay for something and it's bad, I actually lost something in that transaction. As opposed to a free game, I just uninstall it. There are free games with low ratings and high ratings, and I've run into many paid games with abysmal ratings. Steam's new refunding feature does help a lot on the paid game side of things.

Games like War Thunder, Planetside 2, Warframe, and Unturned have done quite well being F2P.

Regardless of the cost of the game, a small free demo offered both on and off of Steam would help players decide whether they like the game before they invest more time/money into it. Thus, making them less likely to leave a negative review if they don't like it.

Perhaps also a feedback system outside of Steam Reviews, driven by Google Forms(or something equivalent), that would allow people to express feedback without necessarily affecting the Steam rating.

[Golkombie]

A free to play market is the best if we can gain upkeep. If we rely on donations, we need to incentivize the players by showing faith in improving the game. For example, improving graphics, promising a workable campaign, and adding new unit perks. BUUUUTT..... Those things are kind of the basic things we need to begin with.

[-Archmage-]

That's all doubly true if we sell the game.

[filux]

A free to play market is the best if we can gain upkeep. If we rely on donations, we need to incentivize the players by showing faith in improving the game. For example, improving graphics...

So if game is available free then devs have more work to do? "Nice deal" and great example  how "demands" works on steam
No money -> no demands -> not bad review ... otherwise "you" are a troll.

... the next classic step in the discussion is: ... "but ... but I paid something" literally from 99.99% of people ... everyone is talking like this but "oddly" devs don't see the income

...Having been a Steam member for many years, and played a lot of the free games offered, I think the idea that free games are covered in trolls is generally not true...

...From my experience negative comments are very dangerous on the very beginning when game is free and later situation is slowly getting better...

Very basic example. I bet that on the very beginning there will be maaaany bad reviews from trolls because e.g.:
"I had to wait whole 11.5 min for free multi-player server  , there should be at least 50 active headless servers, not just 5  "

... and situation in the number of servers will never change much (at least in the positive direction) if it will be still as it is now when Team have to take ~ 3 years of donations to pay for (current, relatively weak) server for 1 year 

[-Archmage-]

If you rely on donations, you have to incentivize people to donate. You have to earn people's money by giving them something they want. There's no way around this Filux. You do less work, you get less in donations.
Also, as I just stated. If you sell the game, this only becomes more important. Now people have invested their money in what you're offering, and it's important to keep customers happy, else they're more likely to leave negative reviews and deflect future customers. You don't have to break your back for your consumers, but leaving them in the dust is not smart, and kills the longevity of your product.

As for Steam comments, you're using your own theory as an example of your theory. That logic does not compute. 
I still don't understand what all these theoretical trolls are supposedly doing on Steam. Considering you can buy games, leave bad reviews and then refund them... Why don't ALL games have tons of bad reviews?
That's not to say of course that there are ZERO trolls, and ZERO people who have some sort of bias against free games. Those people exist, but obviously not in the hordes of numbers that you suggest.

First about Steam & me: I am a newbie on steam and I always will be because I am trying to avoid it as I can

Your loss man.

... and situation in the number of servers will never change much (at least in the positive direction) if it will be still as it is now when Team have to take ~ 3 years of donations to pay for (current, relatively weak) server for 1 year 

If the game is free, incentivizing donation is the best way to earn more money and put up more servers.
If the game is paid, then it's just a matter of money management.

I'm going to assume from your comments that you would like Megaglest to cost money in both locales of availability. I'll support any approach, I just want the damn thing on Steam so we can revive the modding community.

[filux]

If you rely on donations, you have to incentivize people to donate. You have to earn people's money by giving them something they want. There's no way around this Filux. You do less work, you get less in donations. ...

But you don't have a guarantee. You can work 3x more and get 0.5x donations next month .

...If you sell the game, this only becomes more important. Now people have invested their money in what you're offering, and it's important to keep customers happy, else they're more likely to leave negative reviews and deflect future customers...

... and this is how it should work.
If game is available free then steam-ers should thank God that version on steam at least don't crash during runtime and is up to date (because developers have just another place to give support without real profits) ... and for this should be positive review or not review at all. Bad review with those conditions mean > written by troll.

...Considering you can buy games, leave bad reviews and then refund them...Why don't ALL games have tons of bad reviews?...

Why not all? because not ALL are free and people know that you need to find a good reason for refund and laziness wins 

...That's not to say of course that there are ZERO trolls, and ZERO people who have some sort of bias against free games. Those people exist, but obviously not in the hordes of numbers that you suggest...

And this is a point when I understand your point. You are talking about people like recently TVs are talking about terrorist attacks around the world (especially in Germany). "He wasn't a terrorist ... he was just insane ... he had a bad day". Who cares. Behavior like a terrorist mean He is a terrorist.

There basically don't exist people "who have some sort of bias against free games" but at the same time most of people write trollish reviews in comparison to non free (expensive) games.
e.g. Who sane cares that game which costs 39 euros have better graphics than free game? Still free game should get ~ 10/10 overall rating no matter what even if this other expensive game also has ~ 10/10 rating because the price plays an important role too
... but what people do? ~ 2/10 for free game "in comparison to ... expensive"
Isn't it a trollish behavior? It is ... and trollish behavior mean troll.

... so summing up in your opinion there are almost no trolls on the steam and in my opinion maybe even ~ 2/3 of steam community are a trolls if you will give them an easy opportunity for trolling (free game)  and we are talking about exactly same group of people 

[-Archmage-]

Any updates on this?

[John.d.h]

I believe what's more dangerous are negative comments on Steam on how we rip them off. We need to provide Steam Users with exclusive items.

I echo the concerns others have already raised about this, but I do think there could be a viable alternative.  What about instead of having exclusive content, they just get access to new content earlier?  This would necessitate new content being created, and being completely divorced from copyleft assets so that it can be kept behind a paywall, but would give paying customers something for their money, would still give free players new content (albeit delayed), and would generate revenue for new content and for server upkeep, etc.  Free players may even be inticed to spend money when they see screenshots and IRC chatter of paying customers talking about the new mods they get to play.  The main hurdle of this approach is that somebody would have to make a lot of new content, and it would have to be made basically from scratch, and on a continuing basis.  This is by no means an insurmountable problem, but it does require somebody with free time and motivation to do it (and I'm not volunteering by myself ).  If it makes more than enough money for upkeep, then some of the profit could go to these content creators, but I wouldn't expect it to be significant.

A more ambitious approach would be to make a new pay-to-play game on the MG engine and have the revenue pay for both itself and regular MG.  Content could still be released as CC-by-SA, just as individual assets (e.g. available on OGA) instead of as a ready-to-play mod bundle.  I don't expect anybody to go for this, though.

[titi]

MegaGlest on Steam Greenlight:
Please go and show your support with an upvote

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=782856139

[-Archmage-]

So it's been Greenlit for awhile. Any idea on an ETA for when it'll actually be available to Steam users?

[titi]

I made images for steam, what do you think? I choosed the blue pictures instead of the green ( in the spoilers on bottom ), because it somehow better fits to the blue steam layout.

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3. green one:

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The following are not used yet:

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